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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10297483 -

zappaisgod said:
Because you prefer to hamstring any efforts at obtaining information for some nebulous and illusory legal parsing of interrogation techniques so as to make them useless and utterly ineffective.  You are Jamie Gorelick's bastard child.


Just in case you missed it the first time.


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10305770 -

Seuss said:
> But by international law signed and ratified by the USA that it is torture.

Wow, really?  What "international law" signed and ratified by the USA specifically states that waterboarding is torture?  I would really like to see you back up this claim.


That depends if they are found wounded in the battlefield (article 1), wreaked at sea (article 2), or if they are a pow (article 3) or a civilian prisoner (article 4). All of these articles protect the persons in question from torture. And as the UN has constantly stated nobody is to be excluded from these protections. Though prisoners taken in outer-space or deep under the sea may not be protected as long as they were captured there and remain there in captivity.

The Geneva Conventions uses the words "extreme mental anguish" to describe conditions of torture like simulated killings that were used to give the subjects the impression they were dying. This is a prohibited condition to render someone "extreme mental anguish" could be used to describe many of the US's interrogation practices other than and including water boarding. There is a lot of documented evidence over how the CIA's interrogation tactics were developed and that the intent was to break the person. Incidentally this also produced extreme mental anguish and it was this reason that prohibited the USA from using these tactics for the most part since the modern post ww2 Geneva Conventions were ratified.

Quote:
It describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory's territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): Noncombatants, combatants who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3's protections exist even though no one is classified as a prisoner of war.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention#Common_Article_3


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10305782 -

zappaisgod said:
zappaisgod said:
Because you prefer to hamstring any efforts at obtaining information for some nebulous and illusory legal parsing of interrogation techniques so as to make them useless and utterly ineffective.  You are Jamie Gorelick's bastard child.


Just in case you missed it the first time.


Sorry did someone show proof that torture ever got any information that wasn't already available that saved any lives and I didn't know about it... Oh wait that was already brought up and the answer is no (or rather silence on the part of the torture proponents which is equivalent to a no).


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10306318 -

Please break down where waterboarding is barred by the geneva convention.


We've been over this before:  article three protects POW's under that provision, many of the detainees may not be POW's, therefore I don't think you've answered seuss's question.


Yes, I think waterboarding is barred against POW's, but that's not the claim you made.



If you disagree that you haven't answered Seuss's questions about your assertion please break it down and cite the specific provisions which bar waterboarding or declare it torture.  All you've got is something that in my opinion establishes it as forbidden to be used against POW's.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10306717 -

ScavengerType said:
Seuss said:
> But by international law signed and ratified by the USA that it is torture.

Wow, really?  What "international law" signed and ratified by the USA specifically states that waterboarding is torture?  I would really like to see you back up this claim.


That depends if blah blah blah ...


No, I want to see the "international law" that the US signed and ratified that declares waterboarding, by name, to be torture as was claimed in the original post that I quoted.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10330594 -

according to the UN human rights charter web page
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/protocol2.htm#wp1043022
Quote:
Article 5.-Persons whose liberty has been restricted:
3. Persons who are not covered by paragraph 1 but whose liberty has been restricted in any way whatsoever for reasons related to the armed conflict shall be treated humanely in accordance with Article 4 and with paragraphs 1 ( a ), ( c ) and ( d ), and 2 ( b ) of this Article.


IE. Persons not covered by paragraph 1 of this article shall be treated humanely as accordance with article 4 which declares them article 4 (civilian) prisoners.
for shits and giggles lets see paragraph one of the document.
Quote:
1. This Protocol, which develops and supplements Article 3 common to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 without modifying its existing conditions of application, shall apply to all armed conflicts which are not covered by Article 1 of the Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I) and which take place in the territory of a High Contracting Party between its armed forces and dissident armed forces or other organized armed groups which, under responsible command, exercise such control over a part of its territory as to enable them to carry out sustained and concerted military operations and to implement this Protocol.

2. This Protocol shall not apply to situations of internal disturbances and tensions, such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts of violence and other acts of a similar nature, as not being armed conflicts.


so if they seize them in the act of a terrorist attack or some act of spy subterfuge, it's gravy by these provisions, but on the field(or city) of an active war where they are the declared enemy... kinda hard to defend that position I think. Do you want to hear the part of article 4 that protects civilian prisoners from torture like waterboarding or do you give up yet?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10331025 -

I didn't see the word "waterboarding" anywhere in your quotes of the UN pages.  Again, for the third time, please back up your claim and show me the "international law" that the US signed and ratified that declares waterboarding, by name, to be torture.  This was the original claim made that I refuted.  So far, you have posted a bunch of BS that dances around the issue.  I want to see where waterboarding, by name, is defined as torture in an "international law" that the US signed and ratified.  After watching you avoid answering this direct question, three times, I am beginning to suspect it is because you cannot show that such a signed and ratified "international law" exists.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10331708 -

now your just being fucking ridiculous.

edit: I never claimed that the GC declared waterboarding by name to be torture you made that argument up.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (05/13/09 12:38 PM)

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10331724 -

ScavengerType said:
now your just being fucking ridiculous.


Since when is asking a perfectly reasonable question "being fucking ridiculous"?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10331736 -

luvdemshrooms said:
ScavengerType said:
now your just being fucking ridiculous.


Since when is asking a perfectly reasonable question "being fucking ridiculous"?


see my above edit.

What does seuss suppose they should have added a list of all possible interrogation techniques that are banned? I would think that would open for worse abuses than using vaguely descriptive language to make the case.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10332715 -

But that is what the law is supposed to be.  Specific.  If it is not specific any random douchebag can try to reinvent the language and call putting panties on someone's head and a caterpillar in a box with them torture.  And I very much meant "random douchebag".


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10333058 -

Quote:
now your just being fucking ridiculous.

edit: I never claimed that the GC declared waterboarding by name to be torture you made that argument up.


You said, and I quote:
Quote:
I'm still waiting for a part of the Geneva conventions that validates waterboarding. I suspect there is none. Where's the provision that says "Oh and if he's a really bad guy you can torture him just a little as long as you don't leave any noticeable lasting damage." like the torture memos make a claim to. Nobody's debating that you don't think waterboarding is torture or that the bush admin didn't (before they changed their mind) But by international law signed and ratified by the USA that it is torture.


So I am "being fucking ridiculous" for asking you to show where the Geneva conventions specify waterboarding as torture, but you are not "being fucking ridiculous" for asking us to show that the Geneva conventions "validates" waterboarding?  Talk about a "fucking ridiculous" double standard that you seem to have developed.

As far as me making things up, let me highlight for you, since you seem to have a selective memory of what you have said: "But by international law signed and ratified by the USA that it [waterboarding] is torture."

So please, back up your "fucking ridiculous" claims and show me the "international law" signed and ratified by the USA that waterboarding is torture.  Forth time that I have asked.  If you cannot, then please concede that you were wrong.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10352314 -

Quote:
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

    – Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1



The US ratified the UN convention against torture. Waterboarding though not named specifically as well as other torture methods used by the US like stress positions would be included. As well there is some argument that forcing the Muslim prisoners to wear ladies panties and shitting on the Koran (or whatever it was they were doing with it) would fall into a catagory of discriminatory torture. I frankly don't care. But what is clear is that this convention, used to clarify the definition of torture for those who may wish to obscure the issue, makes a definition that would include simulated death by drowning.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10352384 -

> Waterboarding though not named specifically as well as other torture methods used by the US like stress positions would be included.

Says you.  When the courts certify you as an expert on torture, then I will trust your opinion.  Until then, your opinion does not make waterboarding, stress positions, or being forced to wear female clothing amount to torture.  Those may be torture, or those may not be torture, but you are not qualified to make that determination for anybody other than yourself.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10352482 -

Who would be qualified? You mean like the "UN Committee Against Torture" who's job it is to review such behavior and level prosecutions against guilty parties if the US government fails to persecute these individuals themselves?

I ask this if waterboarding is not torture then how is any other simulated death style torture considered to be torture? I mean really there are examples of much less violent/painful methods of simulated death scenarios that I've heard you tortureites talk about before. Waterboarding is painful and mentally terrifying.



--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10352534 -

Well, it's not terrifying anymore since every asshole terrorist now knows that there is a doctor in the next room ready to jump in to make sure nothing bad happens to the poor pitiful murdering scumbag.  By your nonsense we can waterboard at will since everyone knows no harm can come of it.  Now you're only argument making it torture is that it is unpleasant.  So's ABBA and finals week.  Oh the humanity.


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10352592 -

you say that these prisoners know somehow that there is a dr. in the next room and that they won't be drown to death. However I've never seen any proof that these people know this. Given the fact that much of the Muslim interpreters for the US military seem to be being let go for being gay, it would seem that it's unlikely that this is what these detainees are being told.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10352824 -

They fucking do now, don't they?  And what detainees at Gitmo are being waterboarded now?  Answer, none.  It's for future mooks that there is no longer any fear.  Now that technique has been rendered useless and, by your definition, not torture since there is no fear of death or damage attached.  Less torturous, in fact, than finals week.


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10353211 -

it's simulated drowning and your saying there's no fear of death? fuck right off buddy.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (05/17/09 02:44 PM)

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10353340 -

Not any more since President Stupid released the description of the safeguards in place to MAKE SURE IT COULDN'T HAPPEN.  So, no, there is no fear of death anymore.


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