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Re: Obama's Pinstripe Revolution [Re: MrBump]
    #10307856 -

didn't Al Capone have some successfully run Union Business? :smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Obama's Pinstripe Revolution [Re: Seuss]
    #10309115 -

Seuss said:
Quote:
Of course they'd rather "get their due".  But again, unsecured bondholders won't get a penny if the Government doesn't step in.  If GM went bankrupt, only the secured bondholders would get some money out of it.


You keep saying this, but it isn't true.  Under chapter 7 bankruptcy you are probably correct, but under chapter 11 bankruptcy you are flat out wrong.


Features of Chapter 11 bankruptcy
Quote:
If the business's debts exceed its assets, the bankruptcy restructuring results in the company's owners being left with nothing; instead, the owners' rights and interests are ended and the company's creditors are left with ownership of the newly reorganized company.


Ownership of GM without additional help (loans) would almost certainly be worthless.  Who else but the Government is willing to loan GM money right now?  So far as I know, no one else has stepped up.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Obama's Pinstripe Revolution [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10311670 -

You keep saying this shit without showing that it is true or relevant.


WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO OWN GM?


They want their bonds paid, not to own the company.  I've challenged you on this before and you just keep on saying it.




And again, something you ignore, what buisness is it of yours or the governments to decide someone's rights should be violated "when its best"?  You just claim by fiat that you know what's best for them rather than themselves.  What is the relevant of your judgments when put against someone's rights?

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Re: Obama's Pinstripe Revolution [Re: johnm214]
    #10312348 -

johnm214 said:
WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO OWN GM?

They want their bonds paid, not to own the company.  I've challenged you on this before and you just keep on saying it.


And I've agreed that's what they would like, but even the unsecured bondholders realize that's not possible.  They aren't even debating whether or not they can keep their bonds, they're debating how much equity in the restructured company they should get when GM converts its debt (bonds) into equity (stock).

If you can find a source saying that its realistic for GM unsecured bondholders to keep their bonds, then by all means please post it.  Bondholders are already past that.

johnm214 said:
And again, something you ignore, what buisness is it of yours or the governments to decide someone's rights should be violated "when its best"?


I already explained that.  Please read the New York Times Business article I posted, which explains this for Chrysler's bondholders (same logic applies for GM).

johnm214 said:
You just claim by fiat that you know what's best for them rather than themselves.  What is the relevant of your judgments when put against someone's rights?


If you think it's unreasonable for me to say that something is better than nothing, that's fine.

I understand there is one scenario where nothing is better something (if the bondholder also owns credit default swaps), but like I said, I have little sympathy for bondholders who are cheering for GM to fail.  Those are mainly the corporate bigwigs looking to profit over GMs failure, not the mom & pop bondholders.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/09/09 02:12 PM)

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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