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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Seuss]
    #9289718 -

:rofl:


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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Seuss]
    #9290397 -

Seuss said:
> From sources that are cleaner than internal combustion engines

Ah yes, the magical let's pretend it exists source of energy.  Let see, there is nuclear; pollution that lasts for hundreds of thousands of years, very expensive to build reactors that have a limited 30 year lifespan.  There is hydro that harms the environment and kills fish.  There is wind, takes up a lot of space, doesn't produce much, is noisy, and kills the birds.  There is solar which is very expensive, has a limited lifetime before needing replaced, doesn't produce much, takes a ton of energy and releases a lot of pollution to fabricate.


Are you seriously suggesting that drilling for crude oil, refining it into petroleum, distributing it across the country and burning in tiny engines that have to push their own weight around is somehow the most efficient source of energy?


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: zouden]
    #9290469 -

> is somehow the most efficient source of energy?

Uh, yeah.  This is fairly obvious and not really a point of contention.  The more times you convert energy from one form to another, the less efficient the system because, due to frictional losses.  This is why perpetual motion cannot work.  Converting sunlight to electricity, storing the electricity, and then converting the stored electrical energy into motion is going to be less efficient than converting energy stored in fossil fuel to motion.  However, this was not my point, and is irrelevant to the point I was making.

My point is that people latch on to the electric car as a "it will save the planet" type of magical entity.  It will do nothing of the sort.  All it does is moves the harm of energy production from the car to the power plant.  There are a huge number of negative environmental impacts associated with electric cars that nobody bothers to think about.  For example, batteries usually contain a lot of hazardous materials and wear out after a few years.  Electric cars use a lot of batteries.  The low weight materials used in production of electrical cars are environmentally unfriendly to produce and are not recyclable.  The list goes on.

My point is that electric cars are not the magic bullet that will end the worlds pollution problems.  They are not even close.  All they do is shift the blame around and give people a nice warm false sense of security that they are doing something to help the planet.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Seuss]
    #9290506 -

What a ridiculous argument.

As I've said earlier in this thread, the pollution that is currently distributed amongst the millions (billions?) of engines running on every road in the country would be instead concentrated to a relatively small number of power plants.  I'm not sure how you could claim that a hundred points of pollution would be harder to manage than a million, but it seems to me to be patently false.

Also, something like 90% of the car batteries in the United States are recycled.  It may be that down there in the Caribbean they're still just tossing them out the back of the boat onto the coral reef, but environmental standards have come up a bit here on the mainland.

I've not heard anyone say in this thread or anywhere else that electric cars are a magic bullet.  They have, like any technology in it's infancy, many problems that would prevent them from overtaking the marketplace.  I, however, am intrigued with some of the possibilities they offer.  If you could manage do detach yourself from your DoomandGloom machine for a minute and look at something objectively, you might see that.

edit: fixed rampant spelling and punctuation errors.  Don't try to talk intelligently w/out coffee in the morning.  Jesus.

Edited by Madtowntripper (11/22/08 08:31 AM)

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Seuss]
    #9290581 -

Electric motors are more efficient than any internal combustion engine. Power plants are more efficient and cleaner than IC engines. The energy comes from a more diverse source, so the price is less prone to market fluctuations.and is more reliable than being limited to petroleum.

The only thing stopping electric cars from taking over is the lack of a good cheap battery or other energy storage system (fuel + fuel cell, etc) Personally, I think we should be looking for ways to transmit power to cars on the road. Our power infrastructure is located mostly near the roads anyway.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Green_T]
    #9291018 -

green_titan said:
Also, if Pris#1 is right and we do already have high mileage cars, oil companies don't want us to use them because they will lower profits. Either way would piss off the oil companies who are making huge profits, and won't let it happen.



the phone company doesnt want me using the internet for phone
service, the power company doesnt want me using a wind
turbine for electric service, the cable companies dont want
me using a satellite dish... a simple explanation of how
things work

if someone creates a 9000mpg car and sells it to the oil
companies then that's not the doing of the oil companies,
that's the car makers doing, an oil company isnt going to
kill you because you've cut into their profits, if I make
10,000 of these 9000mpg cars, guess what, there's still 6
billion cars sucking down the gas on the road, just inventing
something doesnt make everything else disappear



Quote:
Are we going to spend our resources, energy, and money on setting up renewable energy and technology for the future or fueling battleships and lining oil men's pockets?


it's your choice, how many vehicles are you running off of
veggie oil, how many solar panels or wind turbines do you
own, what are you specifically doing to keep your money in
your own pocket


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Seuss]
    #9291045 -

Seuss said:
My point is that electric cars are not the magic bullet that will end the worlds pollution problems.  They are not even close.  All they do is shift the blame around and give people a nice warm false sense of security that they are doing something to help the planet.


"you can aways absolve you guilt by purchasing my carbon
credits, sure they'll do little more than make me richer and
pay my $12,000 utility bill and gas up my 3mpg limousine but
just think of how little you'll really be doing for the
environment... I'm Al Gore and I approve of this message"



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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #9291084 -

Baby_Hitler said:
The energy comes from a more diverse source, so the price is less prone to market fluctuations.and is more reliable than being limited to petroleum.



you'll have a hard time convincing me of that, I monitor my
bill, in the summer and winter the rates double because of
peak usage, I pay a $75 service fee just for being connected
to the grid, it doesnt matter if I use candles for light and
my fire place for cooking and heat, I still pay that $75,
lately they've added $6 to everyonesto pay for the gas they
use to come read my meter, last I check it doesnt take 3
gallons of gas to drive to my neighbors house

Quote:
The only thing stopping electric cars from taking over is the lack of a good cheap battery or other energy storage system 



lets not forget reliability, how would you like to spend
$3000 every 2 years to replace your batteries, then lets look
again at the safety hazards of lithium and lead and mercury
and all those wonderful electrolytes in the batteries

there's a hell of a lot of problems with electric vehicles


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9291096 -

We just need an alternative fuel source, period.

They are converting diesel engines to run on used cooking oil. This is obviously not the best idea, but it shows there are plenty of other methods for use.

Hell, there is a machine that converts something to diesel, but it costs a large amount of money and you don't get much gas out for what you put in...

Point is, is that there are other methods for fuel, we just have to find them.


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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: MHbound]
    #9291158 -

we have hundreds of alternatives, getting the public to
accept them is the difficult part, people want fossil fuels,
it's what they're comfortable with, sure there's veggie oil
but just how many sources are there

2 years ago farmers had crops sold to oil companies for
biodiesel production, that same year there's a severe drought
so grain production was extremely low, well the various
rights groups, hippies and whom the hell ever started
complaining that the farmers were not feeding the people that
they were selling their crops to big oil... they were under
contract, the oil companies paid for the product to be grown
for them but of course it's the fault of the farmers that we
went 4 months without rain

this year we've had excessive of rain in some areas, droughts
in others, the excess kills crops faster than drought. we'll
again have shortages and again the hippies will cry that the
farmers are neglecting the people to profit from big oil

again we're dependent on a commodity for ethanol or veggie
oil, the fuel prices will fluctuate, it may run more than
petroleum products to power you car if we switch over

so until all the jackasses start looking at the bigger
picture, we'll remain dependent on someone somewhere and
can be completely fucked by a little bad weather


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: MHbound]
    #9291378 -

OK. Just to point out a few facts here off the bat.

First off, wind turbines don't kill birds in any real amount cellphone towers do. Bats are killed by wind turbines because they screw up their vision system but even they aren't killed in any numbers that compare to cellphone tower related deaths of migratory birds. Also wind energy is a realistic power generation solution often the expense of electricity from proper wind turbines (not the crap you see in your big box stores) is about 4-7 cents per mwh. In Europe some countries run mainly off of wind power.

Second, Most of those cars that prisoner #1 linked to do not meet safety standards and frankly reinforced steel is still an important component to building a safe vehicle. I am suspicious neither of the incredible MPG cars you linked to are road legal. Not referring to the VW of course I am familiar with it, they've been working on it for almost 8 years. Lightweight components are a huge way to reduce fuel consumption embraced by most manufacturers today.

Thirdly, solar cells can not recharge cars. Cars often and should recharge at night solar power is available only during the day.

Lastly, according to a number cruncher in "who killed the electric car" if I am remembering my statistics right. Electric cars even if they get all of their electricity from coal power only produce 60% the CO2 of what they would running off of gasoline. With innovations in battery technology this figure could drop.




My opinion is that if I were a congressman then they wouldn't get a dime off the public without a real good plan. What they did the other day was a farce, congress should have pelted them with rotten fruit/vegetables and booed them out of their hearing.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9291669 -

ScavengerType said:
Most of those cars that prisoner #1 linked to do not meet safety standards and frankly reinforced steel is still an important component to building a safe vehicle.


firstly, the links were to show that we are capable of
producing engines that get better milage, second, there is
steel reinforcement in most cars but there's no reinforced
steel in them, the 375mpg '59 model is street legal as is the
VW, both get better than 300mpg the rest are
experimental/challenge vehicles and safety isnt a huge
concern at 20mph on a closed track but if we can get 9000mpg
out of a 400lbvehicle what can we get from something 5x heavier


Quote:
Thirdly, solar cells can not recharge cars. Cars often and should recharge at night solar power is available only during the day.


obviously you arent aware of how solar systems work, they
produce DC power which needs to be converted to AC for
standard household use, in almost every application of solar
AC there's an inverter and batteries, excess electricity is
stored in the batteries and used in times where the sun isnt
shining like at night time when the car needs to be charged

Quote:
if I am remembering my statistics right. Electric cars even if they get all of their electricity from coal power only produce 60% the CO2 of what they would running off of gasoline.


also consider the 'peak usage' aspect, the more electrical
power we use the higher the rates go while the use of fossil
fuels to generate the power may not pollute as much, that
doesnt mean it wont drive up the cost of coal because of
increased demand and thus driving up the cost of electricity
as well as the consumption, that $1200/mo power bill is not
far fetched... I use about $80/mo in fuel now, my power bill
is around $250, seems that the electric car will drive that
cost through the roof




Quote:
My opinion is that if I were a congressman then they wouldn't get a dime... congress should have pelted them with rotten fruit/vegetables and booed them out of their hearing.



misquoted to reflect how it should have gone down :yesnod:


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9291924 -

> First off, wind turbines don't kill birds in any real amount cellphone towers do.

Where there are as many wind turbines as there are cellphone towers, those numbers will be a bit different.  Though to be fair, you are fairly correct... avian deaths are around 3/turbine/year in the US, assuming towers are located outside of migration paths.

However, powerlines and related infrastructure are responsible for 130 to 174 million avian deaths in the US per year.  As we route the power away from wind farms, we will be increasing the size of this infrastructure, thus indirectly wind power is going to increase avian death rates.

Again, I'm not trying to trash any specific alternative energy (other than fission based nuclear power), but, they are not consequence free sources of energy.  There are always downsides no matter what we do.  (Geothermal energy is probably one of the better alternatives.)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9292431 -

Quote:
Thirdly, solar cells can not recharge cars. Cars often and should recharge at night solar power is available only during the day.



Did you bother to read the link I posted on new advances in solar?

It is in this post. The new panels can collect power on cloudy days and store power for weeks, making them ideal for areas that do not get much sun or charging car batteries at night.  They are cheaper to make and easier to install.

They work like photosynthesis does in plants. It's new cool and exciting. Check it out.
http://www.stumbleupon.com/toolbar/#topic=Alternative%20Energy&url=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.peachygreen.com%252Fsolar-power%252Fnew-solar-power-technology-mimics-photosynthesis


I am mostly concerned myself with getting off of foriegn oil dependancy. Why, with all the other options that we have, are we sending billions of dollars to these other countries making them so rich and powerful, while we weaken?

The idea to me is to keep the money here and take away reasons for having to play footsie with people like the Arabs, who are known to be selling weapons to our enemies.

If any other option for energy independence reduces pollution, thats a bonus. Who wants to become like Shanghai? My husband was there on business last year and put his skype camera out the window for me to see the filth they call beathable air. Visability is hardly a mile on a cloudless sunny day. The air pollution was disgusting. As population increases in the U.S., we only have that to look forward to if we don't start changing.

Welcome to the future

Shanghai


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (11/22/08 04:04 PM)

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9294573 -

your right I didn't, sorry.

Prisoner: The peak usage occurs in the day time. A lot less energy is required at night so at night when everyone is charging up their cars the extra load would be satisfied by the more efficient generating capacity. The reason peak usage spikes prices is because it forces generators that are inefficient to be turned on to satisfy the excess demand (I assume you already know this). This will likely result in little increase in daytime usage and will not require many additional power felicities be constructed to satisfy demand.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9294742 -

Cars

http://www.aptera.com/details.php

http://zeropollutionmotors.us/

Energy

http://www.konarka.com/ ;  Solar, Keep an eye on these guys. If the economy is not dead in a year. You could have a $3600 solar system, minus batteries.

Alot others coming out of the woodwork, now that Nanoscientists have learned to convert radiation into electricity and we have clean nuclear, I'm somewhat happy.
(There is also the discovery that some shrooms will utilize radiation in place of light, equally interesting in more ways than energy!!)

With recent advances in carbon nanotubes(Mass Produceable Sheets) we can expect many advances in various fields, From energy, to automotive, Even the possibility of civilian space travel.

And as much as the Large Hadron Collider scares me(CERNS logo is freaky), it probably won't destroy the world and could lead to some amazing discoveries.




--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (11/22/08 11:21 PM)

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Re: Obama on the Auto Bailout [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9295722 -

ScavengerType said:
your right I didn't, sorry.

Prisoner: The peak usage occurs in the day time.


rates double in the hot and cold weather because of peak
demand, aka peak usage, the on/off hours of peak are load
demand, during 2 months of summer it's almost the same temps
24/7 so that load demand is greater, in the spring and fall
fewer people use HVAC systems and fans because the moderate
temperatures and while some companies may also do it on a
daily basis you'll see they also pull the same with seasonal changes


Quote:
The demand for electricity varies with the seasons of the year.  Connecticut's highest demand demand for electricity, our annual peak demand, occurs during the months of June through September.

The lowest demand occurs during the spring and fall; specifically, late March to May and late September to November.  These time periods are commonly referred to in the electric industry as shoulder periods.  The demand for electricity during the winter season, December through early March, is generally greater than during the shoulder periods but less than our summer demand.

Summer seasonal demand:  Air conditioning drives Connecticut's summer peak demand.  However, there are other devices such as pool pumps and dehumidifiers that significantly contribute to this seasonal peak demand.  Remember, Connecticut's peak time period is noon to 8 pm, weekdays.

Winter seasonal demand:  Connecticut's winter demand is largely driven by electric heat and the electricity needed to operate oil and gas-fired heating systems.




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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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