Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 |  [ show all ]
US Auto Industry
    #9205960 -

The US auto industry is close to bankruptcy.
They are poorly managed, have major pension liabilities, pay uncompetitive wages to union workers, and make shitty cars.
In his speech on the economy, President-elect Obama made it clear that the car industry is the "core of the US manufacturing sector," and is worthy of government support.
Although I believe that significant additional fiscal stimulus is called for, Ford and GM should be allowed to go BK. Let better managed automakers that lack the union contracts buy the assets. Some jobs will be saved, and the whole industry will be on more realistic footing.
Green cars are a great idea, but let's face it: while Honda and Toyota were developing fuel efficient vehicles, GM and Ford were pouring their energies into high margin SUVs and pickups. Giving them money to retool now in the guise of environmentally friendly investment seems a bit hypocritical.

Realistically, I understand that Obama owes the mid-western autoworkers. I like to see him trying to live up to his campaign promises, since there's a few I care about as well. However, bailing out the automakers just isn't a good idea.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9205995 -

> However, bailing out the automakers just isn't a good idea.

The problem with free handouts (er, bailouts)... once you start giving out tax money for free, everybody thinks they deserve a chunk of the pie.  I'm still annoyed about the last bailout to the financial sector.  Fix the problems and the markets will self-correct without any handouts needed.  Of course, there is no lobby money in fixing problems... /cynical

As you said, the problem is three-fold... non-competitive labor (unions), poor management, and crappy products.  Rather than reward these failures, the government should stay out of the picture.  When companies die, new ones will form, and the system will self-correct.  It certainly sucks for the people that lose jobs, but many of them are part of the problem, be they management or labor.

Obama is in a tight spot here... it will be interesting to see how he handles it.  I wonder if the government will buy up the auto indstury; another step towards the USSA.  :tinfoil:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9206009 -

I love how they've 'lost' millions and are suffering so badly
$14bn with $2bn in profits in 2006, it's obvious that they
make plenty to pay their over paid employees,stockholders and
execs their 'losses' are simply a reduction in profits

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/snapshots/529.html

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/snapshots/563.html


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Seuss]
    #9206011 -

Seuss said:
  It certainly sucks for the people that lose jobs, but many of them are part of the problem, be they management or labor.



It also sucks for the people that want jobs but can't get them cuz the company they want to work with has to compete with subsidized government-backed industry.  Sucks for companies whos taxes go to aid their competitors and force them out of the market.

Not that you disagree, just pointing out its manifestly unfair to pick favored companies and still expect competition.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9206043 -

A quick gander at GM's financial statements shows a GAAP loss of $38 billion in 2007, a loss of $16 billion for the quarter ended Jun 2008, and GAAP book value of $-57 billion.

Ford only lost $3 billion in 2007, $9 billion last quarter, and is worth more than -$2 billion.

With a high cost to roll over maturing long term debt, these companies are on the brink.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Seuss]
    #9206058 -

Quote:
Fix the problems and the markets will self-correct without any handouts needed.


I'll agree that the financial bailout seems poorly handled and managed, but IMO the government does have a place as guarantor of last resort for the financial system - it is necessary that this role be recognized during good times as well as bad.

Saying that markets "self-correct" isn't really accurate. There have been many market failures, and failures in the financial system as in 1929 or 1871 can have nasty consequences.

In fact, market perceptions are always wrong and can affect the fundamentals they are supposed to reflect. As a result, markets are a complex system with multiple feedback loops, and self-reinforcing feedback loops are not rare - in other words, sometimes markets naturally self-destruct rather than self-correcting.

This is not consistent with some economic theorizing, but much of the economic theorizing (EMH, etc.) is inconsistent with observation of boom-bust cycles, the highly unstable fluctuation of prices, and extreme concentration of success in the financial markets.

George Soros is a successful speculator, and has written some influential books on the subject, with "Alchemy of Finance" being the most complete. Mandelbrot's "Misbehavior of Markets" is another important and easy to read book on the subject. Anything by Taleb has the basic ideas, but Mandelbrot's book is better.



Edit: I agree with the idea that the more bailouts you give, the harder it is to refuse more. Some financial bailout was needed, though, due to the "Paradox of deleveraging" and the key role the financial system plays in the world economy. Without some bailout, it's unlikely that Letters of Credit would now be accepted by non-issuer banks, and as a result international trade would be impossible.

Edited by phi1618 (11/08/08 08:12 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry *DELETED* [Re: phi1618]
    #9206069 -

Post deleted by LunarEclipse<p>Reason for deletion: -


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (11/16/08 05:52 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9206076 -

Let me be clear:
This is different than the financial bailout.

If the US car industry goes under, many people are out of work and others lose their investments, and there is widespread suffering as a result.

If the US financial sector goes under, all international trade stops and there is total economic collapse as a result.

One we can afford, the other we can't.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9206085 -

loss means they have paid out more than they take in which is not the case for the automakers


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9206091 -

phi1618 said:
If the US car industry goes under, many people are out of work and others lose their investments, and there is widespread suffering as a result.



so then it's just another year in the US in this new millinium

Quote:
If the US financial sector goes under, all international trade stops and there is total economic collapse as a result.


you say this like it's a bad thing, bad management is bad
management, we certainly shouldnt be rewarding companies or
their executive officers for being foolish


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9206195 -

The US car industry has always been short-sighted. During the 70s gas crisis they still produced huge heavy cars than what was coming out of Europe or Japan. The documentary "who killed the electric car" shows how GM had electric cars in 96 then pulled them off the road, just to bring them out now? If they go under, i'm sure Renault, Peugeut, vauxhall (euro car companies) might take over their factories and build here. Im surprised they don't because they get really good gas mileage, which is in demand here. I think its foolish for Obama to try to keep all jobs in the US, because when you give people way too much job security, especially in unions, they give a sub par performance.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9206207 -

I'm pretty sure the auto industry got a 25 billion dollar bailout or something along those lines. Also, I've reasoned the low gas prices now are to stimulate the industry and lure more people out to buy new cars, though I feel it's a bit too late for mismanaged US producers who cannot match the efficiency of their foreign competitors.


--------------------
Check out my gallery :sun:

Do YOU have The Band's sheet music books? I am paying cash!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Deekay]
    #9206218 -

I think our 10 year targets for mileage are already in place in Europe and Japan. I really wonder why their cars aren't here. Toyota and Honda are truly international, but I don't think anyone overseas buys US car brands aside from the luxury ones.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry *DELETED* [Re: phi1618]
    #9206494 -

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: -



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9206541 -

Prisoner#1 said:
loss means they have paid out more than they take in which is not the case for the automakers


What the fuck are you talking about?
Try doing some research before making unfounded statements:
Latest 10-Q for GM:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/40730/000095013708010396/k34157e10vq.htm#102
F:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/37996/000114036108024745/form10q.htm

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9206550 -

They just said yesterday they're going to run out of money next quarter.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9206558 -

LunarEclipse said:
phi1618 said:
Let me be clear:
This is different than the financial bailout.

If the US car industry goes under, many people are out of work and others lose their investments, and there is widespread suffering as a result.

If the US financial sector goes under, all international trade stops and there is total economic collapse as a result.

One we can afford, the other we can't.


Can "we" afford to pay higher taxes to pay off the debt from all this funny money being used to "bail out" these corrupt inept financial companies?  I say go ahead I will take the chance of "total economic collapse" from the loss of international trade.  Maybe we get less toxic crap being sent in from China, for example. 

And, do you really want the government to own most of the mortgages, the biggest insurer, and coming soon perhaps ALL the banks?


Nationalization/reprivitization of banks is a good and tested solution to banking crisises.

Edited by phi1618 (11/08/08 10:48 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9206577 -

Quote:
we certainly shouldnt be rewarding companies or
their executive officers for being foolish


I agree.
The FNM/FRE bailout was appropriate; gov't actions since then have been overly generous to company management (who are allowed to keep their jobs and continue to receive bonuses) and shareholders, who face less dilution than they would under a private sector capital raise.

Part of the problem is that Paulson wants a voluntary bailout. Instead, the bailout of troubled institutions should be 1)not done until the financial system is actively threatened, 2) not voluntary, 3) involve the removal of management and the punitive dilution of shareholders.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9206911 -

I have a solution to give new life to the auto industry in America....

Bring back the freaking Electric car already. I would buy the GM EV1 as soon as they hit the floor.

People who had it loved it, and lobbyist for oil had GM recall the leases on them all and destroy them.


I couldn't find a link for the full movie.



--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: US Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9206935 -

phi1618 said:
Prisoner#1 said:
loss means they have paid out more than they take in which is not the case for the automakers


What the fuck are you talking about?



Quote:
An Income Statement, also called a Profit and Loss Statement (P&L), is a financial statement for companies that indicates how Revenue (money received from the sale of products and services before expenses are taken out, also known as the "top line") is transformed into net income (the result after all revenues and expenses have been accounted for, also known as the "bottom line"). The purpose of the income statement is to show managers and investors whether the company made or lost money during the period being reported.



if the gross exceeded expenditures then they are not operating
at a loss, reduced revenue does not equal a loss, it means
reduced profit, regardless it's not hard to bury $7bn here
and there and call it R&D


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The right solution for the Auto Industry
( 1 2 3 all )		 phi1618 3,262 44 11/20/08 01:49 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Pelosi Backs Special Session on Auto-Industry Aid
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )		 lonestar2004 4,319 80 11/13/08 10:03 AM
by Icelander
* Auto Industry Bailout
( 1 2 all )		 Mr.Al 2,161 30 12/31/08 07:12 PM
by ScavengerType
* Toyota kicking more ass in the auto industry hongomon 675 4 10/30/03 11:13 AM
by GazzBut
* Auto Bailout in US. What is this supposed to accomplish?
( 1 2 3 all )		 johnm214 5,015 55 02/06/09 11:47 AM
by Bobzimmer
* Obama takes step over the line that separates government from private industry - Obamunism Tedwilto 1,107 11 04/12/09 10:13 PM
by Falcon91Wolvrn03
* Obama on the Auto Bailout
( 1 2 3 all )		 phi1618 4,055 56 11/23/08 03:00 AM
by Prisoner#1
* AUTO BAILOUT II
( 1 2 3 all )		 lonestar2004 4,054 43 05/28/09 04:48 AM
by orison

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
1,675 topic views. 2 members, 5 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.037 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 18 queries.