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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9271486 - 11/19/08 09:36 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Pris your favorite guy Barney Frank Worries Bankruptcy Would Bust the Unions

"we already have too much union-busting"

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2008/11/19/detroit-barney-worries-bankruptcy-would-bust-unions


:rofl2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: Seuss]
    #9271509 - 11/19/08 09:45 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> There is nothing there; GM needs to go bankrupt.

Yep.  This kills the out of control union costs allowing them to reorganize into something that has a hope of making profit and surviving.  (Not that I am letting management off the hook; there are other problems beyond insane labor costs.)





Agreed.

I want to make te point though that magment and the unions share equal blame.  Fact is this is capitalism in my eyes: a company organizes to drive down costs and reduce labor costs, and the union organizes to oppose such.


While the unions killed GM, you could also say GM's handling of the unions killed them.  I think it is wrong to put the blame on the unions and neglect that GM agreed to those proposals which are killing them.  Fact is GM had a choice, and they choose to reap short term profits at the expense of long term comitments.  They bet that their market share and costs would hold steady or change in a manner that would be able to be compensated for and they appeared to guess wrong.

GM could have refused to sign those contracts.  Let the unions strike. Their profits and share price would have taken huge hits and they would have had to shut down many factories.  But then they could have used that time to either renegotiate or hire people outside the union.  They choose to be the future of the company on their continuing ability to pay their labor obligations and they lost.


While the union also hurt its members, GM also hurt itself.


If soemone more knowledgable in the history here wants to correct me, feel free.  I'm sure it would have been very painful to take the huge financial hit that would have resulted in refusing to renegotiate the contracts in terms the union wanted, but would that have been any more painful then now?  These factories are now shutting down anyways, and GM still has to pay their labor obligations.  There are whole towns with a huge percentage of the people recieving GM money and benifits, and they've not built a thing in a long time- the plants having long since closed.


They killed each other, i would think, and GM is no less to blame for its short sighted ness than are the unions that sacrificed their member's and retiree's wellbeing for an ever increasing burden on the company they took for granted.

This is capitalism, and I think GM and the unions are equal participants as is inherent in such a system.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: johnm214]
    #9271529 - 11/19/08 09:53 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What happens to all the retired GM pensions if they go bankrupt?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9271553 - 11/19/08 10:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Would seem to be up to the judge handling the bankruptcy, although the union would presumably represent the workers.  So the union could agree to release GM from the benifits packages I would think, provided the judge signs the settlment.

If I were a GM pensioner and had health benifits et cet I'd be worried.  If the Union doesn't care, and just wants cash, what's to stop them from just agreeing to strike all the pensions from GM's responsibility along with healthcare?  Depends on how responsive the union is to the desires of the retirees.  It would be in the unions interest, in some cases, to screw the retirees and continue recieving money from GM rather than stick fast and see GM suffer or go bankrupt. 

If the union doesn't need the support of the retirees, then they could, presumably, agree to a settlment with GM which would reduce or eliminate alot of benifits, and if the active union members are mostly working currently, they may go along with it.  If they see the company not being around in the future, they might agree with the union and just try to get as much benifit as they can, including employment, at the expense of the retirees.

Will be interesting to see.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9271601 - 11/19/08 10:26 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
Why is that so hard to believe?




because he had an aneurysm

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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9271608 - 11/19/08 10:27 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
Why is that so hard to believe?




because he had an aneurysm




Who?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9271612 - 11/19/08 10:28 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Pris your favorite guy Barney Frank Worries Bankruptcy Would Bust the Unions





barney makes me larf

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9271625 - 11/19/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
Why is that so hard to believe?




because he had an aneurysm




Who?




Stan Meyer, he was also sued and lost because his wonderful
invention wasnt that damned wonderful, it was a simply
hydrolysis cell and it wasnt anything that spectacular in
relation to the others that were being developed

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Offlinezouden
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9272509 - 11/19/08 02:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed. Mushroomhunter, the science forum has had plenty of threads about water fuelled cars since I've been here - if you want to argue the validity of it, head over there :smile:


--------------------
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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9272561 - 11/19/08 02:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Here's another good op-ed on the car makers, by Mitt Romney.
Quote:


Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008
Boston

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=3&rss

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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9272986 - 11/19/08 03:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know man... I've seen some hydrogen cells that make SHIT-TONS of Hydrogen. I know it's enough to run a vehicle. It's been done.

Let's not argue semantics though.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9274302 - 11/19/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

when you say ran on water what do you mean? I think this is actually the central reason I find this totally implausible.

On the other hand I bet if they hadn't killed the electric car they wouldn't be in this trouble right now. I don't find it hard to believe the oil industry and the US gov killed sustainable technology that could replace oil. What would that do to the US dollar, the OPEC sponsored currency of oil?

On a lighter note, these companies knowingly peddled SUVS while the world is approaching it's tipping point for CO2 and greenhouse gasses. They are ecoterrorists and the CEOs who directed the companies during those times ought to be strung up.

Edited by ScavengerType (11/19/08 07:20 PM)

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9274354 - 11/19/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Another great article on this topic:
Quote:

A Voice of Reason Puts Automakers on the Road to Rescue

By Steven Pearlstein
Wednesday, November 19, 2008; Page D01
Even before being sworn in, Barack Obama has confronted his first big test as president and passed it with flying colors.

The test is the urgent request of Detroit's Not-So-Big Three automakers for a $25 billion "bridge loan" to get them through what they want us to believe is a "short-term liquidity crisis" -- a crisis that has been caused by the "perfect storm" of soaring oil prices, a credit crunch and now a strike by consumers, none of which is their fault, not one little bit.

Democratic leaders in Congress were initially willing to prostrate themselves before the United Auto Workers union and write the companies a blank check. Republicans, by contrast, said no way, promising a Senate filibuster and a White House veto. Another partisan stalemate seemed in the offing.

Then, in steps Obama with the utterly reasonable proposition, delivered in a television interview, that while the failure of General Motors, Chrysler and Ford posed as much of a risk to the economy as AIG and Freddie Mac, he wasn't about to provide three uncompetitive companies with a bridge loan to nowhere. As a condition of his support, he would require that all the constituencies -- the shareholders, creditors, workers, pensioners, managers and dealers -- make the necessary concessions needed to restructure these companies and put them on sustainable, competitive footing.

Yesterday, before the Senate Banking Committee, top company and union executives stuck to their story of victimization and imminent transformation. But the Bush administration, Democratic leaders and many Republicans in Congress seem to have embraced the Obama principles. The haggling now is over the appropriate mechanism. My guess is that the whole thing will be wrapped up shortly after Thanksgiving, perhaps in a holiday package that will include congressional approval (but delayed implementation) of the free-trade agreement with Colombia.


So what would such a rescue look like?

Several weeks ago, I suggested that the only way the government should get involved in a bailout was as part of a "prepackaged" bankruptcy that would result in a major restructuring of the automakers' finances and operations. Going through the bankruptcy process is a necessary legal step to wipe out the interests of current shareholders, replace failed executives and directors, force creditors to accept less than they are owed, abrogate labor contracts, reduce pension obligations and override state dealership laws. And by negotiating many of the details ahead of time, a "prepackaged" bankruptcy could be completed in a matter weeks or months, reducing the risk of scaring away people from buying new cars.

For starters, Congress could create a special bankruptcy court to handle the car company reorganizations, setting strict time limits on the negotiations among the parties and expediting any appeals.

Any bankruptcy process requires a lender to come in and provide interim financing, and that's what the government could do in this case, providing low-interest loans so that the companies could continue to operate as the restructuring is carried out.

During the bankruptcy process, the companies could be authorized to offer government-backed warranties for any new vehicles sold, to allay consumer concerns.

Once the companies emerged from bankruptcy, Congress could direct that its loans be converted into preferred stock that come with warrants to buy as much as half the common stock of the companies. The government would retain control of the boards of directors until the loans are repaid. And if the restructurings prove successful, taxpayers could eventually turn a profit by selling their shares.

Congress could also authorize the General Services Administration to negotiate an advance order, with a big down payment, for millions of new fuel-efficient cars and trucks to be delivered over the next decade as the government's fleet needs replacing. Such an order could not only prod the companies in the direction of more fuel-efficient cars, but also help to finance the research and development necessary to achieve breakthroughs in battery and other technologies. Another $25 billion in loans has been authorized to retool factories to produce the new vehicles.

And to restore the flow of liquidity to the auto finance market, the Treasury could be ordered to use some of the next tranche of money under the $700 billion bailout program to buy packages of auto loans, with an emphasis on loans made after Dec. 1, 2008.

Such a multipronged rescue might require the outlay of a bit more than $25 billion, but it would significantly increase the likelihood that taxpayer money would be repaid. The government could get a nice discount on a new fleet of fuel-efficient cars and trucks. Most importantly, a vital industry would be required to complete a restructuring that was too long delayed.

Let's be clear: While recent improvements have been made, these companies had been badly managed for decades. If they hadn't taken so long to respond to the challenge from imports, if they hadn't thrown away billions on ill-advised acquisitions, if they hadn't agreed to pay wage and benefits well above market rates and make ridiculous promises about job security, if they hadn't so stubbornly ignored fuel efficiency, they would not be in this pickle. Going into this economic crisis, they would have more market share, fewer legacy costs and a whole lot more cash in the bank.

That said, the rationale for rescuing auto companies is the same as it was for rescuing Wall Street banks -- they're too big and too interconnected to the rest of the economy to be allowed to fail. No, it's not fair and, yes, it sets a lousy precedent. The only reason for doing it is that the rest of us will wind up better off than if we did nothing.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/18/AR2008111803510.html?sid=ST2008111803689&s_pos=

I really hope he's right about Obama. I saw the 60 minutes interview (on the web), and he does seem to have the right idea - I just hope he can get buy-in from the necessary parties. If so, this could work out o.k.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9276540 - 11/20/08 01:27 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That's an excellent article. Thanks for posting that :thumbup:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9276760 - 11/20/08 02:50 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

To everybody: Can we please drop the pseudo-science water car free energy BS.  This is not the fantasy science forum.  Fortunately, if you are interested in this topic, there are plenty of posts in the Science and Technology forum discussing its validity.

Getting back on topic...

> On a lighter note, these companies knowingly peddled SUVS while the world is approaching it's tipping point for CO2 and greenhouse gasses.

And they forced people to buy these world destroyers.  The companies didn't respond to market demand, I guess.  /sarcasm

> They are ecoterrorists and the CEOs who directed the companies during those times ought to be strung up.

By definition, a terrorist is somebody that tries to bring about change through the use of fear.  The doomsday global warming crowd fit this definition, but the SUV manufacturers do not. 

(Don't misread me; I loath the SUV industry, but I am not going to pretend that they are terrorists or that they are forcing people to buy SUVs.)


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Offlinezouden
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: Seuss]
    #9276812 - 11/20/08 03:33 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

>And they forced people to buy these world destroyers.  The companies didn't respond to market demand, I guess. /sarcasm

Your sarcasm is misplaced (though I still agree with your point). The companies didn't respond to market demand; consumers have moved on from the early-2000s SUV fad. Small cars are very much in demand, which is why the European and Japanese car makers are doing quite well. GM et al should have seen it coming and responded, but they didn't.

For that matter, Toyata's been making a tidy profit from hybrid vehicles since 2001. Where's the American counterpart?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: zouden]
    #9276816 - 11/20/08 03:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

> consumers have moved on from the early-2000s SUV fad.

They did within the last year with the outrageously high gas prices, but if the trend away from SUVs occurred before then, it is news to me.  (I don't live in the US, so I am not saying that you are wrong... only that I was not aware that there had been a change in consumer demand until recently.)


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Offlinezouden
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: Seuss]
    #9276837 - 11/20/08 03:59 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I don't live in the US either, but this is based on criticisms I've heard levelled at the Big Three for a few years now. SUVs are definitely falling out of fashion in Australia. Fuel prices have been going up steadily since what, 2004? The writing's been on the wall since then, if not earlier.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: zouden]
    #9276908 - 11/20/08 05:20 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

In the US, some people wanted ever-bigger cars until very recently. It doesn't help that you can't see anything and are likely to be flattened in a wreck if you drive a smaller car, and it could be argued that concerted marketing campaigns by the Big 3 drove demand for the larger cars - they were focused on their most profitable business, and you still can't turn on TV without seeing adds for "Ford Luxury Pickups".

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Offlinezouden
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Re: The right solution for the Auto Industry [Re: phi1618]
    #9276917 - 11/20/08 05:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Oh yeah I've seen pictures of those Ford monsters! We have nothing like that here. The biggest I've seen is the F250. And it made me throw up a little in my mouth.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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