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what the AIG scandal shows us...
    #10014072 -

is that the last 8 years never happened.. at least not in the minds of voters...

i dont necessarily dispute that democrats are ultimately responsible for allowing the bonuses...but given the repugs' long track record on such things.. it simply boggles the mind how repugs are suddenly coming across as the new messiahs...

i have noted in another thread that americans are heavily predisposed to repugnican ideology...but to pull this off still requires some kind of bizzare supernatural power to erase and rewrite human memories as easily as files on a computer...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10014802 -

People like you that somehow believe one political party is better than the other are the reason the country is in such a mess.  "It's the repugnican's fault... no, no, it's the democrap's fault..."  As long as people keep voting for "the other" party, the Republicans and Democrats in office will continue down the path of corruption knowing that their job is safe.  The sooner people realize that there is no real difference between a Republican politician and Democrat politician, the sooner we can vote these schmucks out of office and return control of the country to the People rather than to the elite that control the political parties.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Seuss]
    #10014905 -

Seuss said:
People like you that somehow believe one political party is better than the other are the reason the country is in such a mess.  "It's the repugnican's fault... no, no, it's the democrap's fault..."  As long as people keep voting for "the other" party, the Republicans and Democrats in office will continue down the path of corruption knowing that their job is safe.  The sooner people realize that there is no real difference between a Republican politician and Democrat politician, the sooner we can vote these schmucks out of office and return control of the country to the People rather than to the elite that control the political parties.


here here
I agree 100%


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Spawn Ratio Calculator
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I only grow edibles.Any info I give ONLY applies to gourmet mushrooms.

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Seuss]
    #10015192 -

Seuss said:
People like you that somehow believe one political party is better than the other are the reason the country is in such a mess.  "It's the repugnican's fault... no, no, it's the democrap's fault..."  As long as people keep voting for "the other" party, the Republicans and Democrats in office will continue down the path of corruption knowing that their job is safe.  The sooner people realize that there is no real difference between a Republican politician and Democrat politician, the sooner we can vote these schmucks out of office and return control of the country to the People rather than to the elite that control the political parties.


you have conveniently ignored the fact that the US constitution does not permit any other political arrangement.. and that the constitution cannot be amended without permission from the politicians that are benefitting from the constitutionally mandated duopoly...no..it doesnt say anywhere in the constitution that there are to be only two parties..but it does mandate a single-member-district-plurality vote that only allows two parties...

nor do you seem to have a very great understanding of how that duopoly is currently composed in congress ..the repugs solidly represent their base of right-wing moonbats who will never cross aisles.. while the "democraps" find themselves in the unenviable position of representing everyone that doesnt fall into that category (which is why i think their better) and who cross aisles all too oftenly...the obvious..and tragic..result is that the democratic majority still cannot form an effective opposition to a unified repugnican coalition...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10015371 -

> you have conveniently ignored the fact that the US constitution does not permit any other political arrangement..

Nor does it deny such a political arrangement.

> while the "democraps" find themselves in the unenviable position of representing everyone that doesnt fall into that category

Ah yes, the noble democrats, supporting everybody that doesn't vote republican.  I rest my case.

> which is why i think their (sic) better

Hence the reason why you are supporting the problem.  Quite supporting political parties and start supporting individual candidates, regardless of party, that are not corrupt.  There aren't many of them, and they tend to be party neutral.  As long as people like you continue to put the needs of your pet political party above the needs of the People, we the People will continue to suffer.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Seuss]
    #10016150 -

my pet political party is actually the socialist party...in reality..however..the choice is between a radical right-wing repugnican vs whatever fool is running on the democratic ticket...and if i vote for the socialist and the repug wins..then my vote becomes a vote for the repug...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10016222 -

What are you talking about re: the constitution and our present duopoly of power?



Where is it written that this is required?  I don't get your response to seuss- I'm unfamiliar with the portion of the constitution that supports what you've said.

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: johnm214]
    #10017248 -

the US constitution does not specify that there shall be two parties...however..there cannot be more than two parties (that can win) if a single candidate that gets the most popular votes is the sole winner (duvergers' law).. a fact that didnt make it into the constitution either...

OTOH..it turns out that my response to seuss was not entirely correct either ..while the US constitution does require a winner-take-all vote for US senators ..

Quote:
Amendment 17 - Senators Elected by Popular Vote. Ratified 4/8/1913.

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.


the constitution does not require that US representatives and presidential electors be elected as such..but rather leaves it to the states ..

Quote:
[article I] Section 4 - Elections, Meetings

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing[sic] Senators.


but the district-wise winner-take-all vote (single-member-distict-plurality(SDMP)) for US representives was established very early on.. and is still used in every state...that means that the SDMP was either mandated by congress pursuant to article I section 4..above.. or else that it is mandated in every state constitution...in either case..it cannot be changed without the consent of those who are profiting from this system...

furthermore..while european-style multi-party proportional representation in the house is theoretically allowed under the US constitution..this is not true in the senate.. and it would be next to impossible to mesh those two together...

so while the constitutional mandate for the duopoly is not as strong as i had posited earlier.. it is still strong enough ..there is explicit no SDMP requirement for the house..but the SDMP requirement for the senate pretty much forces it on the house...

besides..in an era of instantaneous-poll-driven politics..even multiple parties would tend to gravitate to the median voter.. and in doing so..become too similar to each other and fail to offer the voter a clear choice...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10019189 -

I'm not going to talk about the US voting system or party duality or whatnot.

But on the topic of the original post, it is fairly reprehensible for the republic administration after all the no-bid contracts in Iraq, Cheney the one man circus of corruption and the countless corrupt privatized services. Really after all that, the republicans have a right to call this a fucking scandal? Pleaaaasee motherfuckers.

What AIG did as a buisness should not have been legal and set the company up for where it is today. The money that actually went to AIG to pay off it's insurance promises was basically a gift to the richest 1% in the world and a payout to show that the USA looks after the wealthy people of the world. This may sound crooked, but it was meant to prevent a run on the US market that could have prompted/escalated to a worldwide run on/collapse of the USD.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10019232 -

I don't get what you are saying

What in the constitution requires the things mentioned or prohibits the remedies generally suggested?  Were you just saying you were mistaken or what?


I'm not aware of serious problems for third parties or more fair democratic elections from teh constituion, so I'm curious what specifically you take issue with, if anything.

scavenger
Quote:
Really after all that, the republicans have a right to call this a fucking scandal? Pleaaaasee motherfuckers.




What does their moral standing have to do with anything?  Would you prefer they not?

And the rest of your post seems to presuppose they would not have paid those bonuses if they hadn't gotten the recent legislation, is this correct?  What support do you have for this?



In my opinion the criticisms the republicans are making are good, in general.  Glorified ad hominems towards teh republican party says nothing about the merits of their message or the appropriatness of it.

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: johnm214]
    #10019512 -

Johnm. I don't think that the republicans should be worried about these bonuses, though they will be effectively taxed back now anyway. There is no reason the employees there shouldn't receive minimum retention bonuses because the entire structure and underlying purpose of the organization is to blame. I frankly think that as soon as the public realizes these two things about the controversy then the real outrage will begin. That or by the time they realize what to actually be enraged about they will have reached the end of their attention span. I bet the media will be totally silent on this account, some of the people who own/run the major media outlets in the USA and even abroad are likely some of those richest 1% who are getting insurance money from AIG bailouts on their shitty investments.

The republicans are not pointing the finger at this, and in fact I suppose they are complicit in the real scandal the same way as the media. They want to criticize the bonuses, well all criticism is welcome. However, if a republican wants to say their administration wouldn't have let this shit happen I think I'd refer them to the first AIG bailouts.

My point of my post was that repubs are guilty of corruption so to hear them levying accusations of corruption at the dems is asinine. And AIG is not a problem because of the bonuses, there are way the fuck bigger problems at AIG and they should have been solved years ago to prevent what's going on nowadays.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10019591 -

ScavengerType said:
My point of my post was that repubs are guilty of corruption so to hear them levying accusations of corruption at the dems is asinine. And AIG is not a problem because of the bonuses, there are way the fuck bigger problems at AIG and they should have been solved years ago to prevent what's going on nowadays.


The only thing scandalous about AIG is that our paid representatives didn't read the bill they voted on.  There is nothing scandalous about paying employees what you are contractually obligated to pay them.  But the most heinous and ignorant portion of your ludicrous drivel is that levying accusations of corruption, in the light of the real, endemic and persistent corruption occurring right under our noses, by Dodd, Frank, Reid, et al, is somehow wrong because some guys in the other party did it too.  Which is so beyond stupid as to warp drive into a universe where the Ice Cream Kid is the Highest Form of Intelligent Life. 

I have never had any problem with holding and jailing any Republican who was corrupt.  The Dunce Party has had 8 years to get Cheney and they didn't.  They didn't not because of a lack of will but because of a lack of evidence.  Any evidence at all.  But your infantile assertion that because there are other criminals all criminals are exempt from prosecution is just mind numbing stupidity.  Prosecute ALL of the crooks.


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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: johnm214]
    #10019623 -

johnm214 said:
I don't get what you are saying

What in the constitution requires the things mentioned or prohibits the remedies generally suggested?  Were you just saying you were mistaken or what?


to summarize what i said above ..the constitution does permit a (statewise) proportional..multi-party system in the house.. but not in the senate (since amendment XVII mandates a first-at-the-post vote.. see duvergers' law..above)...because it would not be practical to mesh that house with that senate..the constitution implicitly mandates the duopoly...if you still cant figure that out..then i dont see any point in explaining it further...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10019667 -

I think 80% of the US population wanted the the bush admin to be indited for war crimes. While Obama refused to allow it.

The fact that few read the legislation before it is past has been pretty well known since the patriot act, it's not terribly scandalous, more than a few bills have been passed under these situations since then.

Like I said it's asinine for the repubs to be a corrupt force lobbying against corrupt government. As if they could do better. But furthermore the real problems with AIG are with the other 99%+ of money given to them that didn't go to employee bonuses and went disproportionately to the richest percentile of the world's population to cover insurance on investments when it was economically infeasible to expect insurance. They were up in arms when it was bailouts to poor irresponsible domestic borrowers, but when they are rich international investors "whoh someone's gota have their back." Unless, the sales people at that company that sold those insurance packages need their annual minimum bonuses, then it's an outrage again. I wonder what the minimum dollar limit is where the republican party thinks "oh no, this guy can't be allowed to go bankrupt, or were all fucked!"


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10019879 -

ScavengerType said:
I think 80% of the US population wanted the the bush admin to be indited for war crimes. While Obama refused to allow it.


Link?  I say you are full of shit.
Quote:
The fact that few read the legislation before it is past has been pretty well known since the patriot act, it's not terribly scandalous, more than a few bills have been passed under these situations since then.


More nonsense.  The Patriot Act had been established for several years when it was re upped.  This bill?  Not even several days.
Quote:
Like I said it's asinine for the repubs to be a corrupt force lobbying against corrupt government. As if they could do better. But furthermore the real problems with AIG are with the other 99%+ of money given to them that didn't go to employee bonuses and went disproportionately to the richest percentile of the world's population to cover insurance on investments when it was economically infeasible to expect insurance. They were up in arms when it was bailouts to poor irresponsible domestic borrowers, but when they are rich international investors "whoh someone's gota have their back." Unless, the sales people at that company that sold those insurance packages need their annual minimum bonuses, then it's an outrage again. I wonder what the minimum dollar limit is where the republican party thinks "oh no, this guy can't be allowed to go bankrupt, or were all fucked!"


I wonder as well what the Dem minimum dollar amount is.  Which has nothing to do with your idiotic position that any corruption by any Republican somehow inoculates all Dems from corruption indictments.  And of course wealthy people get the benefit of the government bailing out the insurance policies wealthy people bought.  Fucking DUH!  Contracts, child, contracts.

I am fully aware that you despise the wealthy but without them YOU would have to pay the bill for all the loser bums.  Well, not you since you're a Canadian.  Probably have no income to tax as well.  Just a guess.  As to whether AIG should have been allowed to collapse I'm not sure that that would not have been a bad idea. 

Do you know who stands to get fucked the most by this populist backlash?  NYC schoolchildren from poor families.  NYC taxpayers already get cornholed beyond belief by the federal government.


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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10020025 -

ScavengerType said:
I think 80% of the US population wanted the the bush admin to be indited for war crimes. While Obama refused to allow it.



I'd like to see a link to that as well.

Or was it merely one of your hatred fueled wet dreams?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10020291 -

Bill Maher cited it on one of his shows after the election. I couldn't find the actually poll because I couldn't remember the pollsters whom he cited, but it is important to mention that the wording of the question that was asked was neutral on the Guilt or innocence of the administration on the issues. Merely that they should be investigated similar to how 9/11 was investigated, though hopefully more quickly. And this was announced at a time when the issue was considered quite charged and contentious.

My point zappa was that the patriot act was passed with little reading by the voting officials, this caused huge controversy. Since this people have widely known that the officials are not reading their bills.

Anyway as for AIG as I said by the time it came to bailouts there was a serious problem where if the US government didn't bail their investments out then there could have been a run on the USD. This is the reason AIG was allowed to be bailed out. I am not sure if it was worth the risk or if the run (it could have been only a few investors) would have devalued the USD more or less than the bailout. I would love to hear why you think they shouldn't have been bailed out, at that point I'm on the fence. I didn't even know what AIG was until the 3rd or 4th bailout. However the Bush admin had made it clear after the initial overseas losses that this was the plan to prevent capital flight from the US.

I'd like to hear opinions on if it worked or not as well, I think it did somewhat but at an obvious price. If we were to go back in time, I think it would take at least 3 years to go and do something about about AIG before it was too late.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10020544 -

Did you really just cite Bill Maher?

For real?


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: TGRR]
    #10020584 -

no I cited Bill Maher as citing a source that I cannot find on Google due to the amount of results looking up polls generates. So I'm citing a third party source that I can't recall through an unreliable second party, though he did mention the third party's name and it was a reliable source as I recall. He used the poll as a intro into a new line of discussion, he didn't just blurt it out, so I assume he got it from the cited source.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (03/22/09 05:46 PM)

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Re: what the AIG scandal shows us... [Re: TGRR]
    #10022081 -

TGRR said:
Did you really just cite Bill Maher?

For real?


:lol:


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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