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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
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Last seen: 1 year, 3 days
The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies
    #662554 - 06/04/02 12:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I borrowed this from another website RAISE THE FIST that PGF mentioned.

I don't agree with everything below, but it does raise many valid points...


Don't know about you, but all this who-knew-what-when pre-9/11 stuff is mighty confusing. So once again, I head to that all-purpose reference series for some comprehensible answers.

Q. I've heard all these reports about the government knowing weeks and months in advance of 9/11 that airliners were going to be hijacked and flown into buildings, and yet the Bush Administration apparently did nothing and denied they did anything wrong. They claimed the fault lay in the intelligence agencies "not connecting the dots," or that it was the "FBI culture" that failed. Can you explain?

A. Most of the "it's-the-fault-of-the-system" spin is designed to deflect attention from the real situation. Bush and his spokesmen may well be correct in saying they had no idea as to the specifics -- they may not have known the exact details of the attacks -- but it is more and more apparent that they knew a great deal more than they're letting on, including the possible targets.

Q. You're not just going leave that hanging out there, are you? Just bash Bush with no evidence to back it up?

A. There's no need to bash anybody. There is more than enough documentation to establish that the Bush Administration was fully aware that a major attack was coming from Al-Qaeda, by air, aimed at symbolic structures on the U.S. mainland, and that among mentioned targets were the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, the White House, the Congress, Statue of Liberty. (According to Richard Clarke, the White House's National Coordinator for Anti-Terrorism, the intelligence community was convinced ten weeks before 9/11 that an Al-Qaeda attack on U.S. soil was imminent.)

Q. If they knew in advance that the, or at least an, attack was coming, why did the Bush Administration do nothing to prepare the country in advance: get photos of suspected terrorists out to airlines, have fighter jets put on emergency-standby status or even in the air as deterrents, get word out to the border police to stop these "watch-list" terrorists, put surface-to-air missiles around the White House and Pentagon, etc.?

A. The explanation preferred by the government is to admit, eight months late, to absolute and horrendous incompetence, up and down the line (although Bush&Co., surprise!, prefer to focus the blame lower down, letting the FBI be the fall guy). But let's try an alternate explanation. Think about it for a moment. If their key goal was to mobilize the country behind the Bush Administration, get their political/business agenda through, have a reason to move unilaterally around the globe, and defang the Democrats and other critics at home -- what better way to do all that than to have Bush be the take-charge leader after a diabolic "sneak attack"?

Q. You're suggesting the ultimate cynical stratagem, purely for political ends. I can't believe that Bush and his cronies are that venal. Isn't it possible that the whole intelligence apparatus just blew it?

A. Possible, but not bloody likely. There certainly is enough blame to spread around, but the evidence indicates that Bush and his closest aides knew that bin Laden was planning a direct attack on the U.S. Mainland -- using airplanes headed for those icon targets -- and, in order to get the country to move in the direction he wanted, he kept silent.

Q. But if that's true, what you've described is utterly indefensible, putting policy ahead of American citizens' lives.

A. Now are you beginning to understand why Bush&Co. are fighting so tenaciously against a blue-ribbon commission of inquiry, and why Bush and Cheney went to Congressional leaders and asked them not to investigate the pre-9/11 period? Now do you understand why they are trying so desperately to keep everything secret, tightly locked up in the White House, only letting drips and drabs get out when there is no other way to avoid Congressional subpoenas or court-ordered disclosures? They know that if one thread of the cover-up unravels, more of their darkest secrets will follow.

Q. You're sounding like a conspiracy nut.

A. For years, we've avoided thinking in those terms, because so many so-called "conspiracies" exist only in someone's fevered imagination. Plus, to think along these lines in this case is depressing, suggesting that American democracy can be so easily manipulated and distorted by a cabal of the greedy and power-hungry. But I'm afraid that's where the evidence leads.

Q. You mean there's proof of Bush complicity in 9/11 locked up in the White House?

A. We wouldn't use the term complicity. So far as we now know, Bush did not order or otherwise arrange for Al-Qaeda's attacks on September 11. But once the attacks happened, the plans Bush&Co. already had drawn up for taking advantage of the tragedy were implemented. A frightened, terrorist-obsessed nation did not realize they'd been the object of another assault, this time by those occupying the White House.

Q. This is startling, and revolting. But I refuse to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon until I see some proof. Bush says he first heard about a "lone" pre-9/11 warning on August 6, and that it was vague and dealt with possible attacks outside the U.S. Why can't we believe him? After all, the FBI and CIA are notorious for their incompetence and bungling. You got a better version that makes sense, I'd love to hear it.

A. Bush and his spinners want us to concentrate on who knew what detail when; it's the old magician's trick of getting you to look elsewhere while he's doing his prestidigitation. We're not talking about a little clue here and another little clue there, or an FBI memo that wasn't shared. We're talking about long-range planning and analysis of what strategic-intelligence agencies and high-level commissions and geopolitical thinkers around the globe -- including those inside the U.S. -- saw for years before 9/11 as likely scenarios in an age of terrorist attacks.

The conclusion about Al-Qaeda, stated again and again for years by government analysts, was basically: "They're coming, by air. Get prepared. They're well-organized, determined, and technically adept. And they want to hit big targets, well-known symbols of America." (There was a 1999 U.S. government study, for example, that pointed out that Al-Qaeda suicide-bombers wanted to crash aircraft into a number of significant Washington targets; during the 199 5 trial of Ramsi Yousef, the mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, he revealed plans to dive-bomb a plane into CIA headquarters, and earlier he had told FBI agents that the list was expanded to include the Pentagon and other D.C. targets.)

Elements in the FBI, all over the country, who suspected what was coming, were clamoring, begging, for more agents to be used for counter-terrorism investigations, but were turned down by Attorney General Ashcroft; Ashcroft also gave counter-terrorism short shrift in his budget plans, not even placing anti-terrorism on his priority list; John O'Neill, the FBI's NYC antiterrorism director, resigned, asserting that his attempts at full-scale investigating were being thwarted by higher-ups; someone in the FBI, perhaps on orders of someone higher-up, made sure that the local FBI investigation in Minneapolis of Zacaria Moussauoi was compromised. All this while Ashcroft was shredding the Constitution in his martial law-like desire to amass information, and continues even now to further expand his police-state powers.

(Note: An FBI agent has filed official complaints over the bureau's interfering with antiterrorism investigations; his lawyers include David Schippers, who worked for the GOP side in the Clinton impeachment effort; Schippers says the agent knew in May 2001 that "an attack on lower Manhattan was imminent." A former FBI official said: "I don't buy the idea that we didn't know what was coming...Within 24 hours [of the attack], the Bureau had about 20 people identified, and photos were sent out to the news media. Obviously this information was available in the files and someone was sitting on it.")

One can accept the usual incompetency in intelligence collection and analysis from, say, an anti-terrorist desk officer at the FBI, but not from the highest levels of national defense and intelligence in and around the President, where his spokesman, in a bald-faced lie, told the world that the 9/11 attacks came with "no warning." More recently, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, in a quavering voice, tried to characterize the many warnings as mere "chatter," and concerned attacks "outside the U.S." But the many warning-reports focused on terrorist attacks both inside and outside the United States; the August 6th briefing dealt with planned attacks IN the United States.

Not only were there clear warnings from allies abroad, but the U.S., through its ECHELON and other electronic-intercept programs, may well have broken bin Laden's encryption code; for example, the U.S. knew that he told his mother on September 9: "In two days you're going to hear big news, and you're not going to hear from me for a while".

And, the word of an impending attack was getting out: put options (hedges that a stock's price is going to fall) in enormous quantities were being bought on United Airlines and American Airlines stock, the two carriers of the hijackers, as early as September 7; San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown was warned by "an airport security man" on September 10 to rethink his flight to New York for the next day; Newsweek reported that on September 10, "a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns"; many members of a Bronx mosque were also warned to stay out of lower Manhattan on September 11, etc. etc.

Q. You're giving me intriguing bits and pieces. Can't you tie it all together and make it make sense?

A. OK, you asked for it, so we're going to provide you with a kind of shorthand scenario of what may well have gone down, a kind of narrative that attempts to tie a lot of disparate-seeming events together. There is voluminous, multi-sourced evidence that establishes this scenario. It's scary, so prepare yourself.

We believe that the HardRight began serious planning for a 2000 electoral victory -- and then implementation of a HardRight agenda, and the destruction of a liberal opposition -- a year or two after Clinton's 1996 victory. (The impeachment of Clinton was a key ingredient to sully Democrat opposition.) The GOP HardRight leaders decided early to select George W. Bush, a none-too-bright and easily malleable young man with the right name and pedigree. They ran into a speed-bump when John McCain began to take off in the public imagination, and so with dirty tricks they wrecked his campaign in the South and elsewhere, and continued on their merry course.

For a while, they fully expected an easy victory over dull Al Gore, tainted goods for a lot of conservative Republicans and others because of his association with Clinton, but, given the obvious limitations of their candidate, they weren't going to take a lot of chances. In Florida, for example, where it looked as if the race might be tight, they early on arranged things -- through Bush's governor-brother Jeb, and the Bush campaign's Katherine Harris, Florida's Secretary of State -- so that George W. couldn't lose. An example: removing tens of thousands of eligible African-American voters from the rolls.

As it turned out, Gore won the popular vote by more than a half-million votes nationwide, and, we now know, would have won Florida's popular vote had all the ballots been counted, but the U.S. Supreme Court HardRight majority, despite its longtime support for states' rights, in a bit of ethical contortionism did a philosophical reverse in midair and ordered the Florida vote-counting to stop and declared Bush the winner, installing a President rather than letting the people decide for themselves.

Q. That's ancient history. I'm interested in 9/11, not tearing at an old scab.

A. OK. We're merely trying to indicate that the HardRight's campaign to take power was not an overnight, post-9/11 whim but worked out long in advance. After so many near-chances to take total control, they would do anything to guarantee a presidential victory this time around -- which would give them full control over the reins of power: Legislature (where HardRightists dominated the House and Senate), the Courts (where the HardRight dominated the U.S. Supreme Court and many appellate courts), and the Executive branch, not to mention the HardRight media control they exerted in so many areas.

They had followed the news, they knew that the Al-Qaeda terrorist network was engaged in a maniacal jihad against America, and was quite capable -- as they had demonstrated on many occasions, from Saudia Arabia to East Africa to the first attempt on the World Trade Center -- of carrying out their threats. They also knew, from innumerable intelligence reports from telecommunications intercepts, and from various commissions, CIA and foreign agents that Al-Qaeda liked to blow up symbolic icon structures of countries targeted, and that Al-Qaeda, and its affiliates, had an affinity for trying to use airplanes as psychological or actual weapons. (The French had foiled one such attack in 1994, where a hijacked commercial airliner would be flown into the Eiffel Tower.)

By early 2001 and into the Summer, warnings were pouring in to U.S. intelligence and military agencies from Jordan, Morocco, Egypt, Tunisia, Israel, and other Middle East and South Asian intelligence sources, along with Russia and Britain and the Philippines, saying that a major attack on the U.S. Mainland was in the works, involving the use of airplanes as weapons of mass destruction.

Indeed, in June and July of 2001, the alerts started to be explicit that air attacks were about to go down in the U.S.; even local FBI offices in Phoenix and Minneapolis began passing warnings up the line about Middle Eastern men acting suspiciously at flight schools. In July, Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial airliners and traveled only by private plane, and Bush, after but a few months in office, announced he was going to ground, spending the month of August on his ranch in Crawford, Texas. Cheney disappeared from view, and our guess is that he was coordinating the overall, post-attack strategy.

Under this scenario, in mid-Summer 2001, Bush&Co. decided this was it. Bin Laden unknowingly was going to deliver them the gift of terrorism, and they were going to run with it as far and as fast and as hard as they could. The various post-attack scenarios had been worked out, the so-called USA Patriot Act -- which contained various police-state eviscerations of the Constitution -- was polished and prepared for a rush-job (with no hearings) through a post-attack Congress, the war plans against the Taliban in Afghanistan were readied and rolled out, the air-base countries around Afghanistan were brought onboard, and so on. All during the Summer of 2001.

Q. I don't understand how war against Afghanistan could have been anticipated so early.

A. Follow the money. Various oil/gas/energy companies had wanted a Central Asian pipeline to run through Afghanistan (costing much less to build, but also so it wouldn't have to go through Russia or Iran); that project was put on hold during the chaos in Afghanistan, but when the Taliban took over and brought stability to that country, the U.S. began negotiating with the Taliban about the pipeline deal. Even after sending them, via the United Nations, $43 million dollars for "poppy-seed eradication," and inviting them to talks in Texas, the Taliban began to balk. At a later meeting, the U.S. negotiator threatened them with an attack unless they handed over bin Laden and reportedly told them, in reference to the pipeline, that they could accept "a carpet of gold" or be buried in "a carpet of bombs." (The later U.S. Government spin was that the bin Laden issue and the pipeline issues were separate, and that the U.S. threats didn't mix the two and there were misunderstandings of what was said.) Shortly thereafter, bin Laden, hiding out in Afghanistan, initiated the September 11th attacks, and the U.S. bombing of that country began. Oh, by the way, in case you haven't noticed, under the new U.S.-friendly government in Kabul, the pipeline project is back on track. Oh, by the way, the pipeline will terminate reasonably close to the power plant in India built by Enron that has been lying dormant for years, waiting for cheap energy supplies.

Q. You're saying that U.S. war and foreign policy have been dictated by greed?

A. Among other pleasant motivations, such as hunger for domination and control, domestically and around the globe -- which always ties in with greed. That's why Bush&Co. play such political and military hardball. That's why the arrogant, take-no-prisoners, in-your-face attitude, to bully and frighten potential opponents into silence and acquiescence, even questioning their patriotism if they demur or raise embarrassing issues.

Q. But this is a democracy, people are still speaking their minds, right?

A. Certainly, there are areas of America's democratic republic that have not yet been shut down. But where there should be a vibrant opposition party, raising all sorts of questions about Bush Administration policy and plans, America receives mostly silence and timidity. However, as more and more of the ugly truth begins to emerge -- and Enron, Anthrax, and pre-9/11 knowledge are just the tips of the iceberg -- the Democrats (and moderate Republicans) are beginning to feel a bit more emboldened. But just a bit, preferring to run for cover whenever Bush&Co. accuse them of being unpatriotic when they raise pointed questions.

Q. You're so critical and negative about the Bush Administration. Can't you say anything good about what they're doing?

A. Yes. They have moved terrorism -- the new face of warfare in our time -- front and center into the world's consciousness, and have mobilized a global coalition against it. They may be making mistakes, which could lead to horrifying consequences, or acting at times out of impure motives, but at least the issue is out there and being debated and acted upon.

Now, having said that, we must point out that the institutions in this country -- the Constitution, the courts, the legislative bodies, civil liberties, the Bill of Rights, the press, etc. -- are in as much danger as they've ever been in. And the U.S.'s bullying attitude abroad may well lead to disastrous consequences for America down the line.

Q. So, what's to be done?

A. The most important thing at the moment -- even, or especially when, the inevitable next terrorist attack occurs -- is to break the illusion of Bush&Co. invulnerability. The best way to do that, aside from ratcheting up the Enron and Anthrax and 9/11 investigations (and it may turn out that those scandals are deeply intertwined), is to defeat GOP candidates in the upcoming November elections. If the Democrats hang on to the Senate and can take over the House, the dream of unchallengable HardRight power will be broken. Bush&Co. will become even more desperate, overt, nasty, and in their arrogance and bullying ways, will make more mistakes and alienate more citizens. The edifice will begin to crumble even more; there will be more and deeper Congressional and media investigations; resignations and/or impeachments (of both Bush & Cheney, and Ashcroft) may well follow.

Q. You're asking me to support ALL Democrats, even though in a particular race a moderate GOP conservative would be better?

A. Yes. In some cases, you may have to hold your nose and send money to, canvass for, and vote for a Democrat; we can get rid of the bad ones later. The objective right now -- for the future of the Constitution, and for the lives of our soldiers in uniform and civilians around the globe -- has to be to break the momentum of the HardRight by taking the House and keeping the Senate from returning to GOP control. Doing so would be even more important than what happened when that courageous senator from Vermont, Jim Jeffords, appalled by the HardRight nastiness and greed-agenda of the Bush folks, resigned from the GOP and turned the Senate agenda over to the Democrats.

Q. And you think if the GOP gets its nose bloodied in the November election, that will convince Bush to resign or lead to his impeachment? I don't get that.

A. Churchill once told the Brits during World War II that "this is not the beginning of the end, but it is the beginning of the beginning of the end." There is a lot of hard work and organizing and educating to be done, but the recent exposure of Bush coverup-lies about pre-9/11 knowledge is "the beginning of the beginning of the end." With a GOP defeat in November, Democrats will be emboldened to speak up more, investigate deeper, and those inquiries will unlock even more awful secrets of this greed-and-powerhungry administration. And that will be the beginning of the end -- and the beginning of the beginning of a new era of more humane values for America and the rest of the world.


QUESTION AUTHORITY!




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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #662615 - 06/04/02 01:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Wanna buy a bridge.

Sorry if I asked you that before but it seems you'll buy just about anything.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,256
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #662631 - 06/04/02 01:33 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You tell me who is more gullible...Someone who believes everything his/her government tells him as fact, when that same government has lied repeatedly. Or someone that is sceptical of said government and forces it to justify it's actions?...I'm not going to bother responding to any more of your posts unless you actually have something intelligent to say to debate what I've said...how about stepping up to the plate and proving me wrong?...Yeah, that's what I thought....NEXT!


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinehongomon
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Registered: 04/14/02
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #662636 - 06/04/02 01:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Luvdemshrooms, I'm sorry, but the posts I've seen from you lately on this forum have been worthless. You're just heckling from the peanut gallery.

Come on, don't kill the dialogue. Offer something.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #662716 - 06/04/02 02:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I never said our government doesn't lie. I'm well aware they do when it suits the needs of the government and sometimes the needs of our country.

As for having something intelligent to say, I've seen little from you that I would call intelligent. Now, I don't know you, so I'm willing to concede you might be a smart person. I find your political views deplorable however and not really worthy of serious discussion.

I feel that we have the finest system of government on the planet and as such find little wrong with many, if not most of the actions taken.

From all I've heard and read there was no specific warning of the events to come. I don't know how much time you spending reading and listening to the news so I won't claim to spend more time than you doing so, but I spend hours with the news everyday, and from many different sources. So lets say there was a threat. For the sake of arguement, lets say it was that terrorists were going to do just as they did and crash into a building. There was no specific date mentioned. What would you have had Bush do? Should we close down our airports everytime someone makes a threat? We've been warned that the terrorist scumbags may have nukes. Should we evacuate NYC everytime some nutcase claims the time to detonate a nuke is near?

Did the FBI drop the ball? It appears so. Did the CIA? Doesn't seem to be much doubt there. However, they were both operating under Clinton era rules which include but were not limited to not being able to use criminals as informants or infiltrators. What rocket scientist came up with that? Perhaps with a bit more time to undo the damage Clinton had done, more might have been done. To argue that Bush could have done something to stop the attack is beyond foolish.

Now, I may have missed them, but were there post like this about Clinton from you? Because the impression I get of you is of a left wing America basher.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
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Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #662747 - 06/04/02 02:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Rono,

The timeline was good. This is leftwing propaganda.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
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Registered: 08/09/00
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #662758 - 06/04/02 02:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

At least I know I'm not the only one.

As a wise man once said its all calateral damage. A means to an end.


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Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: jonnyshaggs420]
    #663001 - 06/04/02 05:53 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The pipeline is happening. The US was probably a co-conspirator. But that doesn't change the fact that the above post is Democrat propaganda.

Totally uncited, and the only hope for the future is to vote Democrat....

Horse

shit.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,256
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 3 days
Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #663069 - 06/04/02 06:48 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If you read my post you would see that I didn't agree with everything in that link...the fact that they were saying that voting Bush out was the only answer left a bad taste in my mouth. But it did make good points...

luvdemshrooms ...You are missing my point altogether. I'm saying that the reason there was such a fuck up with the FBI and CIA "intelligence" was because it was in the best interests of certain factions of the U.S. government to let it happen.
I can appreciate the fact that you are proud of Democracy and you're right, it is in my opinion the best political system around in it's purity. But when you have Big Business calling the shots then that is another matter alltogether. Please explain to me how Dubya managed to get in the White House in a "Democracy" yet his opponent had more votes? Explain why there were already plans made for running a U.S.pipeline through Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11. Explain Mike Vreeland's sealed envelope that detailed the attacks before they happened?...it's all a matter of public record. Or how about the fact that Egypt, Russia AND Isreal all gave warnings and still nothing was done...

If I'm wrong then so be it...This is one thing I would LOVE to be wrong about.

And no...I didn't make any statements about Clinton, but it's obvious he's not exactly a saint either, but I don't remember the last time I was actually concerned about U.S. politics until now.

The American Media is holding so much information back from you it's scary...but if you choose to walk through life with closed eyes and don't even question what your own government does then that's your call...as long as it doesn't affect you personally then everything is fine right?

Is blind-faith so ingrained in your sub-concious that you have lost the ability to question anything your president does?


And before anyone says it...no this is not an Anti-American thread. The U.S. is indeed the most powerful nation in the world...hands down. But like the quote says.."with great power comes great resonsibility"...and that means YOUR (as an American citizen) resposiblity to make sure the power isn't abused.

I really didn't want to turn this into a rant..(too late) and Luvdemshrooms you made an excellent post, even though I believe your opnions to be somewhat closed minded.

I really have no problem with a good debate, but I have no patience for replies that resort to name calling..so before anyone starts flaming me for finding the whole 9/11 thing a little suspicious, just make sure you got something to say.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #663106 - 06/04/02 07:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Rono, I know your post was directed to Luvdemshrooms, but I would like to address a couple of points:

Democracy... is in my opinion the best political system around in it's purity
An unfettered democracy is nothing but tyranny of the majority, hence the need for a constitution to delimit and limit the powers granted to a government.

Please explain to me how Dubya managed to get in the White House in a "Democracy" yet his opponent had more votes?
The U.S. is not a democracy, it is a republic. The constitution was originally written as a pact between the different states in order to serve their common interests. Several devices are used in order to prevent the larger states from dominating the smaller states, one of these being the electoral college, another being the bicameral legislature with one part (the senate) having equal representation for all the states. George Bush received more electoral votes, this is what counts and has always counted in the presidential elections. In essence, each state decides who it wants to support for president, then the electoral votes from that state are commited to the state's chosen candidate. This cannot be changed without a constitutional amendment or a constitutional convention.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #663134 - 06/04/02 07:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Rono, we seem to have a few things in common. I've been of voting age since the late 80s, but only recently did I start to really think about politics. It had something to do with airplanes and tall buildings. To be honest I hate politics. I'm cynical enough already.

I never even knew the difference between left-wing and right-wing. It was only when I wrote "conservative" on my right hand and "liberal" on my left did I start to get it figured out. But even then, I still didn't know what I was, I only had opinions on stuff. It didn't take long posting on forums like this. People are really quick to tell you if you're left or right or whatever other label you're worthy of.

Keep up your posts.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #663419 - 06/05/02 12:51 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

luvdemshrooms ...You are missing my point altogether. I'm saying that the reason there was such a fuck up with the FBI and CIA "intelligence" was because it was in the best interests of certain factions of the U.S. government to let it happen.



No, your missing my point. If you believe that "we" deliberatley allowed the attack to happen, you're a bigger fool than I care to spend my time talking to.

In reply to:

Please explain to me how Dubya managed to get in the White House in a "Democracy" yet his opponent had more
votes?



I think evolving did that quite nicely so I'll leave his answer alone.

In reply to:

Explain why there were already plans made for running a U.S.pipeline through Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11.



I'm sure we have plans to run pipelines just about everywhere there is a chance of finding oil, doesn't mean we'll ever use them though.

In reply to:

Explain Mike Vreeland's sealed envelope that detailed the attacks before they happened?...it's all a matter of public record. Or how about the fact that Egypt, Russia AND Isreal all gave warnings and still nothing was done...



Nobody said to us, look here, on 9/11 19 highjackers are going to hijack planes. Even if they had, you cannot ground every flight in the US just because of a warning. There are thousands of flights every day.

In reply to:

And no...I didn't make any statements about Clinton, but it's obvious he's not exactly a saint either, but I don't remember the last time I was actually concerned about U.S. politics until now.



So it didn't bother you when our nuclear secrets wound up in China? It didn't bother you when the FBI files made it into the White House? It didn't bother you when Clinton had an asprin factory bombed with cruise missles to hide that fact that he was a liar? It didn't bother you that this man was arguably the most corrupt president in our history?

In reply to:

Is blind-faith so ingrained in your sub-concious that you have lost the ability to question anything your president does?



I question many things, but your post was so ludicrous that in order to give it any creedence at all one has to have either an angenda, or be bereft of sensibilities.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #663421 - 06/05/02 12:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

just to reply to your thread about us surveying pipelines without interest is a bunch of crap, I say it definitely is prior interest, Because surveying is hard work, one contract can cost thousands or even hundreds of thousands, who has money to burn on un related surveying.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: nugsarenice]
    #663423 - 06/05/02 01:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hey dickless, where did you see me say we had surveyed anything? There is a large difference between doing a survey and making plans.

But lets go with your feeble arguement for a moment and assume we had done a survey in Afganistan. That means nothing. And it most certainly doesn't mean or prove that our government allowed the 9/11 attacks to happen.

You, nugs, are graphic proof that our school systems have failed us. You see a bit of info and run with it as if it were proven fact. Sad.... very sad.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #663427 - 06/05/02 01:20 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Plans for an oil pipline require archaelogy, and surveying othersie you will have no knowledge of possible strata, oil deposits, and terrain, however in this day we probraly do our surveying much more cheapyly by sattelite imagary.

Also,your right, I am very stuipid, with many hopeless ideas on improving our education system for our youth, although if an appropriate helpful political candidate was in office, that I was with friendly terms with, then I could propose them. I suggest intensive second language development from early school in most frequent langugaes, and a intensive farming program for youth that resembles the "Schools in the Countryside" of Cuba, a self supporting school system. I am living proof of the useless of school. but I think these two programs are all our school needs to develop mindfullness of intelligence.

Things I learned in School:

Never commit to a girl.
Never let a girl tell people that she and you are commited.
Never place a girl on a pedastel.
Never talk with crazy koreans.
Never fight with asian people.
Never associate yourself as a german, or racist.
Math is useful, but calculators are more useful.
The game "drug war" is stupid
Never breath lysol.
Never drink before school.
Never forget to smoke before school.
Never eat mushrooms in school.
Do not call bomb threats.


That's about it, finally though, keep important telephone numbers in a organizer, organizers are much help.


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Offlinepolitikill
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: nugsarenice]
    #663582 - 06/05/02 05:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Just a few things that may help to clarify this issue:
1."The information the president got dealt with hijackings in the traditional sense, not suicide bombers, not using planes as missiles," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer
Even the White House has admitted that some information was passed along by other Intelligence Agencies around the globe. The White house also said that as a matter of policy they will not reveal the exact nature and details of the warnings received. This statement has has contradicted by Russian intelligence who has confirmed that they "warned of the possiblity that the hijackers would use the planes as weapons". This is a direct quote from Putin.
2. The Israeli Mossad (Intelligence) has also confirmed that they had passed on information to the states regarding the "possibility of attacks on major landmarks in the United States during the week of Sept. 10th".

I am not trying to suggest that the US knew the exact details regarding the attack but there is significant information to suggest that the government had been warned of the possibility of such attacks.
At first the White House claimed it had received no information regarding the attacks, now it seems to be changing it's tune. At the very least I think that an investigation is in order!! That is just common sense and not "leftwing propaganda".


--------------------
Censorship: ahh, McCarthyism with a smiley face



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: politikill]
    #663608 - 06/05/02 06:16 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to "Nobody said to us, look here, on 9/11 19 highjackers are going to hijack planes. Even if they had, you cannot ground every flight in the US just because of a warning. There are thousands of flights every day."

That statement alone has showed me how mis-informed you are...and obviously you have not read any of the links I have posted for reference. Mike Vreeland was/is a U.S. Intelligence Officer in the Navy that has an office in the Pentagon..how is it possible that he had detailed info about the attacks? Perhaps because they knew the attacks were coming...quite the concept isn't it?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #663616 - 06/05/02 06:24 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

and in reply to "So it didn't bother you when our nuclear secrets wound up in China? It didn't bother you when the FBI files made it into the White House? It didn't bother you when Clinton had an asprin factory bombed with cruise missles to hide that fact that he was a liar? It didn't bother you that this man was arguably the most corrupt president in our history?"

That may well be the case, but that is another argument altogether. You call me a leftist because I argue againt Bush...I am not affiliated with either party, yet you paint me with broad strokes. Why is so easy for you to see and accept the corruption in the Clinton era yet so blind to the corruption in the Bush administration...you call me a leftist, yet you seem to be the one that is blinded by right wing politics.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: hongomon]
    #663627 - 06/05/02 06:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hongomon wrote:
I never even knew the difference between left-wing and right-wing. It was only when I wrote "conservative" on my right hand and "liberal" on my left did I start to get it figured out. But even then, I still didn't know what I was, I only had opinions on stuff. It didn't take long posting on forums like this. People are really quick to tell you if you're left or right or whatever other label you're worthy of.

Hongomon, it is my studied opinion that limiting the descriptions of political philosophy to just the left-right labels is rather simplistic and helps serve the purpose of the groups that control power in this country. I suggest that you check out The World's Smallest Political Quiz for a better mapping of political idealogies and where your opinions may fit.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: ]
    #663656 - 06/05/02 07:02 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

According to that I am Left Liberal...so be it.



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #663683 - 06/05/02 07:35 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I may have the specifics a little off......but last night I heard on IPR (international public radio) that a United States Air Force officer has been suspended for writing a critical editoral about Bush and his failure to respond to the attacks.

Seems this Air Force officer felt that our jets could have been scrambled into action possibly saving 1000's of lives.

It is pretty significant when one of their own is splitting ranks and speaking up. This man was very brave to write that editorial.

If I can find it, I'll post it.


--------------------
***The Real Shroomery nigger


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: PGF]
    #665817 - 06/06/02 11:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: PGF]
    #665939 - 06/06/02 01:06 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I really don't remember the specifics, so this is kind of useless, but the guy who used to be in charge of such things said that if he were in charge on Sept. 11, things would have been very different. He said jets could have easily been scrambled on time, and other shit like that... Damnit, I wish I could remember where I heard/read this... I think it was soon after the events, and I think I saw him on the news, but I can't be sure. I think it might be the same thing you're talking about... Fuck.


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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #666060 - 06/06/02 02:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Give me a link to this Mike Vreeland story. Toronoto Star ? This Toronoto Star http://www.torontostar.com ? Where is the story upon their website? I cannot seem to find it even after searching. I could have missed it. Perhaps you can supply me with a direct link so I can see for myself.
My geuss without even reading it is the guy is a wacko like you and the story belongs in a tabloid table trash magazine.

I'll tell you..that little poster of Bush you posted needs to be shinned up real nice ...and shoved up your candy liberal ass . It makes no sense citing past U.S. WARS. So now wars are terrorism to you ?

By the way thanks for having the other thread closed and poluting the board with yet more of your B.S. liberal pablem.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #666075 - 06/06/02 02:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In the latest FOX News/Opinion Dynamics poll, slightly more blame the FBI than the CIA (13 to 9 percent), and a generous 13 percent say no one is to blame for failure to prevent the attacks. Only a handful of Americans place the fault directly on President George Bush (6 percent); in fact, twice as many blame former President Clinton (12 percent).


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #666354 - 06/06/02 06:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, there you have it. We can all go home now.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: hongomon]
    #666503 - 06/06/02 08:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Here's another interesting tidbit. An anonymous Republican senator is blocking senate legislation to reform the FBI. See the story at this address:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/06/07/fbi/index.html

People suspect that this is some kind of "payback" for the Democrats shooting down Bush judicial nominee Charles Pickering. Well, I suppose this kind of partisanship is par for the course among the bottom feeders on Capitol Hill, but if this is "partisanship" that must mean that Democrats favor improving the FBI's capacity to save American lives, and that Republicans, for some mysterious reason, oppose it.


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OfflineJammer
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #666512 - 06/06/02 08:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

RE: "However, they were both operating under Clinton era rules"...


Thats a good one... Keep blaming Clinton.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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OfflineJammer
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #666522 - 06/06/02 08:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

RE: "Hey dickless..."


Lets try not to flame each other for there views, 'kay?

Thanks.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Jammer]
    #666602 - 06/06/02 09:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"Thats a good one... Keep blaming Clinton. "

Why not? Slick Willy was one of the most worthless American presidents in history...maybe with the exception of Carter. He didn't do much of anything back when we had the chance to stop Osamamama...but really government is not to blaim. Want to know who I blame? I blame Islamic terrorists and Osama Bin Laden. They are the ones to truly blame. Without them this would not have happened(.)
Conspiracy NUTS pop up after nearly every major historical event to blurt and spout nonsense to each other...trying to make their lives more interesting..attempting to make everything a fucking soap opera. Ummm..GET A LIFE YOU WACKOS!



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?


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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Jammer]
    #666604 - 06/06/02 09:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"Lets try not to flame each other for there views, 'kay?"

Does the same go for people you agree with? Just wondering...



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?


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OfflineJammer
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #666664 - 06/06/02 09:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

RE: "Slick Willy was one of the most worthless American presidents in history"

I wrote a loooong reply to this.... but I'm not going to post such obvious history. (READ)

(try a search engine on the news)

Search for "HEAD"
(does Clinton's sex life matter to most then nor now?)


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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OfflineJammer
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #666670 - 06/06/02 09:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

RE: "Does the same go for people you agree with? Just wondering... "


Yes it does.. I will allways be as fair as I can here. (it's the personal name calling that I am refering too)


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Jammer]
    #666959 - 06/07/02 07:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I just went to the lecture last night with Mike Ruppert (those who have been following my posts know who he is) and all I can say is..Holy Fuck! There is so much shit going on it's fuckin scary. I managed to record the first 1 1/2 hour of the lecture and will make a link to it soon, but I missed the 2nd half of the lecture...sorry. My mind is still reeling from all the info that was dumped on me...to the point I couldn't sleep last night. I will try to post a coherent report later...but let's just say the evidence that Bush and Co. are involved in some seriously shady dealings is irrefutable and solid. And it's worse than many of you think...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Jammer]
    #666972 - 06/07/02 07:46 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Jammer, I saw your post on the Off Topic forum a while back inviting posters over here, and I thought, That's pretty cool. Just wanted to mention that.

hongomon


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Anonymous

Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #666978 - 06/07/02 07:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If anyone here thinks that 9/11 wouldn't have happened with Al Gore in office (or Bill Clinton, if he would have been allowed three terms) you have a very feeble grasp on reality.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: ]
    #666983 - 06/07/02 07:55 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If Clinton were president, terrorism would have been abolished by now.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Anonymous

Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #667126 - 06/07/02 09:41 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

LOL, why would he have sent Ambassador Lewinsky to give Osama a blow job and make him a happy fellow? Would he have brought back to life the people he killed when he bombed the Aspirin factory? Would he have rebuilt the factory and apologized? What would he have done about the USS Cole?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: ]
    #667150 - 06/07/02 09:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Putting the blame on one president or politcal party isn't going to work...they are ALL corrupt, make no mistake about it. Corporations run the world, not politicians...If you follow the money trail, you'll see.

Ever wonder why the news in the U.S. seems to be missing alot of things the rest of the world knows? Allow me to tell you...Because they are ALL owned by big business, who in turn are in bed with whoever is running the country at the time...and the last thing they need is to have the people wake up and see what REALLY is going on.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #667211 - 06/07/02 10:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Rono wrote:
"Putting the blame on one president or political party isn't going to work...they are ALL corrupt, make no mistake about it.
I agree with you 100% on this point.

"Corporations run the world, not politicians...If you follow the money trail, you'll see."
If you follow the money trail, it goes right to the pockets of politicians. They have the power that attracts those businessmen who are unscrupulous and find it easier to buy political favors than to freely compete in the marketplace. If you didn't have politicians willing to grab power and sell it, corporations wouldn't be able to buy it. Additionally, by grabbing more and more power for themselves and trying to control businesses more and more, politicians have created a situation where businesses are forced to pay tribute to them so they will not be legislated out of business.

Yes, there have been, there are, and there always will be some people in business who have no morals and will do anything they can get away with to get more money or control. However this should not be used an an excuse to blame all corporations or businesses. The problem is systemic, it involves business interests, religious interests, bureaucratic interests and nationalistic interests all working through the political system and converging to create the current morass we find ourselves in.

Politics is partisan interests masquerading as principle.


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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #667233 - 06/07/02 10:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm still awaiting you to give me a link to this B.S. Mike Vreeland story. I REALLY want to see it. So give it up...if it exists.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #667258 - 06/07/02 11:15 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have an idea..how about you do some research on the topic yourself? I have already put out the information regarding Mike Vreeland, the rest is up to you... Mike Vreeland Open Letter
or how about a sound file?

Mike Vreelands email address...contact him and see..
caltvreeland@aol.com

More on Mike Vreeland
Mike Vreelands court records
Yet MORE

Even the Germans know about the Mike Vreeland story

There is too much information..if you chose to ignore it, then I pity you...

I think I have done more than enough of the footwork for you...if you are still sceptical after everything I've provided, then it is obvious your mind is already made up regardless of what evidence I provide.


--------------------
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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Registered: 05/21/01
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #667520 - 06/07/02 02:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"The vast majority of Vreeland's claims have no way of being proven true and some have even been found to be downright lies. "

I took that comment from one of the links YOU provided. So...in conclusion after having put myself through the horror of reading and listening to all that utter BULLSHIT I have to say this guy is NOTHING more than a crazy criminal out seeking attention. I pity YOU if you believe a word this pyscho blurts out. If this story had a shread of legitimacy the press and media would be ALL OVER IT. Of course they are not though and you only find it on pablem puker far left extremist websites. Give me a break. Take your B.S. and spout it to some 3 year old...they might actually believe you.
Have a nice day.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?


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OfflineJammer
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: hongomon]
    #667937 - 06/07/02 08:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

RE: "Jammer, I saw your post on the Off Topic forum a while back inviting posters over here, and I thought, That's pretty cool."


Thanks... I hope that I didnt ofend any of the mods of OTD, I was just trying to put some life in this forum. Shit, how was I to know that a couple of plugs would actually result in ANY increased trafic over here. (I guess thats what happen)

I must admit, I'm very pleased to see this forum picking up at such a speed. As the truck drivers say on the cb radio somtimes: Were in the "Hammer Lane" now.

(this is just TOO cool)


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (06/07/02 08:09 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #670281 - 06/09/02 06:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

this is from today's moscow times - guess things haven't changed so much
"Global Eye -- Croker Sack Blues

By Chris Floyd



While the lumbering giants of the American media make their clumsy bows of obeisance to the presidential paymaster filling their corporate goodie bags with tax-cut candy and merger massage oil, a few snippets of unsalted truth about the real world continue to spill from the croker sacks of the lean and hungry provincial papers.

Last week, it was the Savannah Morning News unearthing an attempted terrorist bombing by a U.S. soldier in the gaterous moral swamp of Jeb Bush's Florida. This week, it's the Ithaca Journal in upstate New York, bringing news of Big Brother Georgie's old-fashioned approach to warfare:

Ordering soldiers to kill women and children.

This revelation -- entirely unremarked by the larded lords of the Fourth Estate -- came in a homely profile of young Army Private Matt Guckenheimer, just returned to the bosom of his family after a tour of service in Afghanistan. While recounting some of his experiences during the much ballyhooed "Operation Anaconda," Guckenheimer artlessly spilled what was surely meant to be a secret order from his superiors.

"We were told there were no friendly forces," Guckenheimer said. "If there was anybody there, they were the enemy. We were told specifically that if there were women and children to kill them."

Let that sink in for a moment: American soldiers were told to kill women and children. "Specifically." To kill a child. To put a bullet in the brain of, let's say, a 2-year old girl. To hold the barrel of a rifle to her tiny temple and pull the trigger. To watch as the tender plate of her skull, the delicate bones of her face, her large bright inquisitive eyes were all obliterated in a burst of red mist. "We were told specifically to kill them." "Women and children." "To kill them."

So that's the kind of warfare being waged by those notorious two cowards, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. When their own generation was on the firing line, in Vietnam, both men ardently supported the war -- but disdained to fight in it. For his part, Cheney was too busy with his long bootlicking rise to power: "I had other priorities," he has loftily proclaimed.

Meanwhile, Bush's daddy got his drink-addled little boy a cushy stateside berth in the Texas National Guard -- but even then, Junior couldn't stick it. He bugged out for an entire year of his duty -- desertion in wartime, a capital offense, if you're not rich and well-connected. Fortunately, his service records for that period were "scrubbed" by General Daniel James, former head of the Texas National Guard, who is now head of the entire nation's Air National Guard -- courtesy of his appointment by a grateful George W. Bush.

Now these two armchair warriors, Bush and Cheney, ensconced safely behind the greatest phalanx of personal protection ever seen in history, are sending out a new generation of young people to kill and die. Like their predecessors in the Vietnam War, they are twisting the faith and idealism of patriotic young soldiers and turning them into instruments of murder.

And for what? Certainly not to "bring the perpetrators of Sept. 11 to justice," the ostensible purpose of the war. Those perpetrators are still roaming free -- and are even more dangerous than ever, according to Cheney himself. No, the main reason why Private Guckenheimer and his comrades are being ordered to murder women and children could be found last week in a headline buried in yet another obscure province of the American Empire -- a brief business story from the BBC:

"Afghan Pipeline Given Go-Ahead."

Murder Inc.

And there is more of this to come; much, much more. For even as Private Guckenheimer was making his quiet revelations, the Commander-in-Chief was loudly proclaiming a brand-new military doctrine for the United States:

Sneak attacks -- like Pearl Harbor, like Sept. 11.

Speaking at West Point military academy, Bush first praised the soldiers in Afghanistan "who have fought on my orders." ("We were told specifically that if there were women and children to kill them.") He then announced that from henceforth, the United States will "impose preemptive, unilateral military force when and where it chooses," the Washington Post reports.

For the first time in its history, the United States is now openly committed to offensive military aggression against any perceived threat designated by its leaders, the unelected White House occupant told the cadets. Bush said that "60 or more nations" presently lie under this dread edict -- and all are potential targets of his "kill the women and children" orders.

What's more, Bush said this new military bellicosity will be accompanied by aggressive diplomacy aimed at forcing other nations to adopt American values -- that is, the Enron-style "crony capitalism" foisted on the United States by a corrupt elite and their political bagmen. Bush called this pustulant system -- now suppurating before our eyes, as corporation after corporation, including Cheney's own Halliburton, are caught cooking their books -- "the single surviving model of human progress."

So there you have it. Just like bin Laden -- another unelected leader who claims divine sanction for his actions -- Bush will send his forces to strike without warning at anyone he believes is an enemy. Just like bin Laden, Bush considers innocent women and children to be legitimate targets of his holy wrath. And just like bin Laden, he seeks to impose his own limited, barbaric world view on other nations, for his own power and profit.

What quadrant of hell is hot enough for such men?"

this is the link for the interview with guckenheimer
http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20020525/topstories/380284.html

i find it interesting the mainstream press are coming out with this stuff, moscowtimes is obviously gonna be one-eyed but the ithaca journal should know better


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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Registered: 05/21/01
Posts: 311
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: mr crisper]
    #670533 - 06/09/02 08:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Moscow times? Why do you polute the board with more B.S. pablem. The person writing that is obviously biased and most likely a left over advocate of communism. The idea U.S. soldiers were given orders to kill women and children on site without cause is ludicrous. I'm sure they may have to do such things from time to time though as these bastards you compare us to commonly train their children to hate and kill. Here again you have the word of ONE individual with no proof to substantiate their claims and the crazy conspiracy theorists and anti-americans jumping on it.
Get a life.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #671250 - 06/10/02 08:21 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

G.C. You say that the papers aren't picking up the Mike Ruppert story yet I have no find a Newspaper in Canada that hasn't picked up the story. Like I said before, the U.S media is highly censored, but of course in your infinite wisdom you already knew that right?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Post deleted by users_request [Re: Rono]
    #671257 - 06/10/02 08:26 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Anonymous]
    #671275 - 06/10/02 08:34 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

U.S. Goverment = Corrupt

That's as simple as I can make it.


--------------------
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OfflineJammer
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Re: The Bush 9/11 Scandal for Dummies [Re: Rono]
    #675677 - 06/12/02 09:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

RE: "U.S. Goverment = Corrupt

That's as simple as I can make it."



Could you please elaborate on this?


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>>Jammer>>


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