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Post deleted by Moe Howard
    #1000045 -


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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000052 -

IMO, patriotism is a way for a government to control it's people. if i got everyone here to be 'down for my cause' i could manipulate you all... hmmmmmmmm  :smirk:

btw, i don't feel it either


--------------------
-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000057 -

Don't confuse patriotism with nationalism.

One is good. One is bad.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000059 -

True patriotism is only a love for your country. If you enjoy living where you do and wouldn't want to live anywhere else, you're a patriot. Some politicians (I won't name names) want to make you belive that you have to go along with everything your government does to be a patriot. That is what I would call the raping of our language to gain political support.

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Sclorch]
    #1000079 -


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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000096 -

I love America because I have a Constitution to protect my rights. Granted some politicians would wipe their ass with it to further their own agenda, but an abused constitution is better than no constitution at all. Two examples:

In Germany, where rights are not protected as much as in America, it is illegal to display a swastika. In America, that would violate freedom of expression, and would not be tolerated.

In England, which is relatively similar to Germany, guns have been all but outlawed. Gun confiscation and regestration would never fly in America.

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Anonymous]
    #1000111 -


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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000130 -

There is no ban on ECHELON writings or swastikas.

Another difference between America and many European countries which makes me prefer America, is our policy on sales tax. In Germany you pay exactly what everything is marked at. If a hammer says 5 euros, it is 5 euros. While this is more convenient, it also prevents the population from knowing just how much the government is taking.

I just mentioned that because I bought some rye berries earlier and the total came to $5.03 and I only had a $10 bill, which kind of pissed me off.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000580 -

I dislike Patriotism because I believe it creates an us against them vibe that causes friction. To me, the embodiment of what is wrong with the patriotic ideal is in all these "United We Stand" pictures we have seen after 9/11. They say "United We Stand" and then show a picture of the American flag. Maybe I am reading more into than it deserves but to me it kind of proves what I am talking about. They mean united we stand for America. However, I think we must learn to live in sync with all forms of life. I made a few and plastered them around town that say "United We Stand" with a picture of the globe (because a picture of the Universe is hard to come by).

To qoute some people -

"It is a round world last time I checked" - Bill Hicks

"Better to have pride in being a citizen of the world, then the pride that divides when the colorful rag is unfurled" - Neil Peart of Rush (the song "Territories")

I think it is possible to love your country without hating others but we have so many symbols to show ONE country and all the maps have so many lines, I think it gives people a complex and the average patriate does not pull this off, in my humble and fallable opinion.

As to where it comes from I am not to sure. My theory would be a way of increasing our pride. I mean if we are American then we aren't just anybody...right? (Not my belief) You know what I am trying to say? I mean how many times is the word "pride" assossiated with Patriotism?

I don't think it makes us healthier and in the long run I don't think it makes us happier and I think its biggest influence is it increases our territorialism.

Me and you, we are humans...we're together and that is plenty for me. I love you!


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Anonymous]
    #1000783 -

Good thing we live in America, where any maniac can get their hands on a gun and swasticas can be displayed freely.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1000886 -

I think genuine patriotism can only be felt if you think that your country is a better place to live than any other country.  If you take your current lifestyle and standard of living as a given, it's hard to feel patriotic.  But if you've been to a 3rd world country or one with very few freedoms, then you might appreciate your own country a heck of a lot more, and feel proud to be a citizen.
With that said, I personally find it difficult to be overly patriotic in any country that claims it is "free", but puts you in jail for having drugs in the privacy of your own home.  I'll feel a lot more patriotic once I feel that I'm living in a "free" country!  :confused:     


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Patriotism [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1001008 -


I hate patriotism, but I'd rather live in America than most other countries.

I do think that patriotism segrates humans more than unites them in a way.

I pitcure it as a city (the world) with a bunch of gangs. And all the gangs go around taking their money from their neighborhood to support themselves, sometimes getting in a gun battle with a rival gang. Patriotism is like wearing your gang colors and saying- 'I'm proud to be segrated conformist to this neighborhood, because we are the best and any other gang trying to go against us should pay in blood'.




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1001124 -

Actually... I was wrong.

I was curious about the differences between the definitions of patriotism and nationalism, so I looked them up. It seems that they are in fact synonymous.

Fuck nationalism = Fuck patriotism


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Murex]
    #1001181 -

In reply to:
I pitcure it as a city (the world) with a bunch of gangs. And all the gangs go around taking their money from their neighborhood to support themselves, sometimes getting in a gun battle with a rival gang.


Excellent analogy. Sounds similar to sentiments expressed by Robert Lefevre.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1001260 -

This is an interesting topic, I think blind patriotism is exactly what america is feeling right now. They love their country.. but why? because we had some buildings blown up? twisted logic, because the effects of that are now causing us to lose freedoms, the very thing we based this country on. This reminds me of a political discussion I had with my dad the other day, we've always talked politics in the past, but he saw a side of me he hasnt seen. I told him I don't consider myself an american and I don't feel any patriotism towards the country, I told him I am a human being and I live on earth, this kind of shocked him, but after some discussion I think he really got my point and respected it.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1001272 -

You are all confusing patriotism with nationalism, which is easy given the fact that even our president doesn't know the difference. Patriotism is in no way pride towards one's country, it is love of one's country. Patriotism is a good thing on its own, it builds a caring society. Nationalism is pride in one's country, which can lead to aggressive, uncontrolled behavior. I am patriotic, but not nationalistic.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1001935 -

Fuck patriotism! I'm a citizen of the world.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Anonymous]
    #1002023 -

So you are saying the difference between the two is love compared to pride? Well that seems cookie cutter to me. Someones love for their country is very capable of instilling pride which can lead to those aggressive uncontrolled behavior. These two emotions are seperate things, but very capable of mingling together. In my opinion, patriotism leads to nationalism and vice versa... its the feeling that both of these convey that leads irrational behavior.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Anonymous]
    #1002318 -

Stonedfish: You are all confusing patriotism with nationalism...

Actually, this is what I thought at first too... then I looked up the definitions.

nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism] 2: the conviction that the culture and interests of your nation are superior to those of any other nation
Source: WordNet ? 1.6, ? 1997 Princeton University

patriotism
n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism]
Source: WordNet ? 1.6, ? 1997 Princeton University


Also, since the only reference on dictionary.com was Princeton, I looked it up in my own dictionary. I was surprised to see the same thing there.

I think over the years, the dictionary people have made both words synonymous... which I think is a mistake.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Anonymous]
    #1002445 -

"In Germany, where rights are not protected as much as in America, it is illegal to display a swastika. In America, that would violate freedom of expression, and would not be tolerated. "- Well, I thinlk the wounds are still sore and they are very paranoid about that kind of thing happening again. As for your freedom of expression, you'd be amazed how liberal german television is compared to yours. Alot of the stuff shown would never make it past your censors.

"In England, which is relatively similar to Germany, guns have been all but outlawed. Gun confiscation and regestration would never fly in America." -The majority of people in this country dont want guns to be legal, so how does that contravene our civil liberties? On the other hand there are many people in the states who are opposed to your gun law, wheres their freedom? Anyway, I dont understand your obsession with carrying lumps of metal that kill people. You have one of the highest murder rates in the world - surely there is a connection!




--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002550 -


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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1002605 -

it is beautiful for every person to have something distinctive of his/her origin, and be prepared to fight not to lose it.

to love your country doesn't mean to obey your government.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1002773 -

word


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: Patriotism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002915 -

In reply to:
The majority of people in this country dont want guns to be legal, so how does that contravene our civil liberties?


Do not confuse public opinion or the popularity of exercising a certain freedom with liberty. True liberty is not subject to popular opinion.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Evolving]
    #1003184 -

True liberty is not subject to popular opinion

It should be. Drugs would be legal then.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: akjakj]
    #1003214 -

Your reply makes no sense.

To elaborate, liberties should exists regardless of public opinion for or against them, this is the purpose of the Bill of Rights. To claim that a curtailment of freedom is actually a civil liberty because the majority is against that freedom displays a misunderstanding of the concept of civil liberties. If the majority of a populace says that blacks should be denied freedom of speech, and the government curtails that freedom, is this then an enjoyment of civil liberty?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (10/29/02 12:57 PM)

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1003690 -

Patriotism is a form of "social ego". I would say you can relate yourself more directly with people talking the same language, feeling the same problems and having a common future. In a social aspect, as the major social relationships (countries) are divided by fictional walls called borderlines, we were educated to express and feel our social ego associated to our notion of union only restricted to those boundaries we call countries.
From a spiritual prisma, i think we must be as a whole, to do so we cannot promote competition between us just because we feel to, patriotism is a feelling, must we control it ? Ask yourself where is its usefulness.
Patriotism is the pride for the nation, a pride wich many explain it differently, can take a man to the moon as it can destroy a city just in seconds. For those who command the nations is just a weapon to control the masses, those in charge praise it to get attention, they talk to everybody when they use it, they're listened and followed, no one knows if it's for the best or for the worst.
Anyway, i share megadeth feellings about this, i remember this one when i was around 16,
"Symphony of Destruction"
.....
CHORUS
Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the symphony
Of destruction
.....
The earth starts to rumble
World powers fall
A'warring for the heavens
A peaceful man stands tall
Tall

Says it all.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Anonymous]
    #1003709 -

I just can't get why there are so many germans that admire "the american way", from the germans i allready knew this is becoming a rule not an exception. Don't take me wrong, i know some germans and i see them as equal, i don't really give a fuck about patriotism or whatever, i just can't get why you like america so much. Besides, in terms of freedom you just can't compare, sorry but i'm willing loose some financial precision for some blunts i easeally smoke in most streets in my country.
Anyway, you live in the most economically powerful country in Europe, i live in one of the most poors, we want to be like you and you want to be like the americans, oh yeah.... this shit is pretty fucked up  :grin: .

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Sclorch]
    #1003714 -

Actually, i see nationalism as having an extremist view of patriotism.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Patriotism [Re: raytrace]
    #1005214 -

I once saw a bumpersticker that aptly summed up what many of us are saying..."I love this country...it's the government that scares the shit out of me".

it is beautiful for every person to have something distinctive of his/her origin, and be prepared to fight not to lose it.

Every person already is distinct in his or her origin IMO, without waving a flag. Know what I mean, friend?


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1005547 -

i like what silversoul7 said,

"I'm a citizen of the world."


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: Patriotism [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1007215 -

I know what you mean and I agree. I do feel 'citizen of the world', but reality is there are borders, even though I don't like it this way.

My question is:

Would you just accept it if your country were invaded by another country, occupied, and then gradually your culture, language, history etc., all get lost? Assuming that your freedoms are the same under both governments, would you not fight for it?

Edited by raytrace (10/30/02 05:07 PM)

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Re: Patriotism [Re: silversoul7]
    #1009487 -


I love what you said silver soul, I'm right behind you!

I thik people should feel solidarity with people of all countries of the world, we are all people. I really am disturbed by patriotism. I have african american ancestry and I remember that some of my ancestors were slaves underneath the American flag. A whole lot of other shit happened under that flag that I am not proud of.

I am not proud that my country dropped atom bombs on two cities in Japan in world war two. I am not proud of a whole lot of other shit the US has done in other countries. The US government is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives in Latin America, way more than died in the World trade center.

I think that patriotism makes people think that people from their own country are more important than people from other countries. This is obviously the case in the US. After September 11th everyone in the states was talking about how horrible an act of terrorism it was. People were saying it was one of the worst tragedies ever. 3 thousand some people died and I think that is horrible. However, hundreds of thousands of people die from lack of good food each day! Most of these people don't live in the US so we don't reaqlly take much notice. It seems than that the life of a United States citizen is more important than the life of some african or asian. That is bullshit! No one seems to make too big of a deal about the thousands of people that have been getting chopped up in Uganda and Rawanda.

I think that now in the 21st century we need to give up our patriotism and work towards an idea of world citizenship.


--------------------
---Still Searching---

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1015733 -

Patriotism ranges from delusion (persisting from it's inertia) to worship of a God named America. I treat patriots more carefully than I do a paranoid schizophrenic friend of mine who believes Pepsi laces their products with methamphetamine (and goes into online rages full of death threats when he drinks them).


--------------------
Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1016131 -

Reginald and Melinda stumble out of a bar one night and as they walk through the parking lot to their car they see American flag stickers on every other car. This triggers a debate over patriotism. Reginald thinks patriotism does more harm than good. Melinda thinks patriotism is beneficial to the country.

Melinda: I love this display of patriotism. Ever since the September 11th attacks, this country's citizens have really stepped up and have shown their pride for this country. I even went out and bought a couple of American flags and patriotic bumper stickers to show my support.

Reginald: I think that kind of patriotism is fake. You don't have to buy a bunch of stickers and flags to be patriotic. The people who do that are just doing it to boost their own egos by shoving their fake patriotism in everyone's face. In reality, by being patriotic we only make ourselves more vulnerable. We get caught up in the "Heil Hitler" chant of the government and we forget to question government policies and actions. We also become biased when assessing the status of our own country in failing to criticize our own downfalls. The government then runs wild without its citizens keeping it in check. We must always be intensely critical of our government and its institutions because wherever there is power, there is always a chance for corruption and it usually lies in the least likely of places. We also must keep ourselves objective in assessing our country.

Melinda: By constantly being critical of our government we only weaken its power. We need to have a strong government to make sure that our national security is strong and dependable. Take a look at the country since the September 11th attacks. We have heightened patriotism which has led to higher national security. We have fighter jets patrolling major cities, better airport security, heightened security at nuclear power plants, and we are weeding out the terrorists overseas. Don't you feel safer since the government has taken action to make this country a safer place to live?

Reginald: Actually, I feel like my civil liberties are more violated today than ever before in recent memory, and that doesn't make me feel safe from my own government. Now the government thinks everyone is a suspected terrorist. In our lust for revenge, patriotism has failed to protect our civil liberties from the government by failing to question political actions. The government has extended the time period that you can be held by the authorities before being charged with a crime. Now, if the authorities wish, they can tap your phone line without getting permission from a judge first. The list of civil liberty violations goes on and on and they are a direct result of us failing to question the government due to patriotism.

Melinda: These liberties are all outweighed by the benefits of patriotism. These liberties can be put on hold until the war on terrorism is over. Patriotism unites people. There is a sense of unity in America right now that cuts across gender and racial lines. It seems as though we are all focused on a common goal which is to rid the world of terrorism.

Reginald: Terrorism is not something that we will ever be able to eliminate. It is impossible to extinguish. Patriotism has given us false hope in thinking that this is a conceivable goal. Just because we have strong national security and a war on terrorism going on, it doesn't mean that the government is taking these actions in order to protect its citizens. It might just be trying to protect itself. You would have to be pretty na?ve to think that the government always has its citizens best interests in mind. Patriotism makes the government feel less inclined to serve its citizens because everyone is content and there is no demand for beneficial actions or policies to take place.

Melinda: If everyone was content then why would people still vote? Just because people are patriotic, that doesn't mean that those people still don't voice their opinions to the government. In fact, I believe that patriotism makes people more involved in government by feeling more connected to the country. We should probably cut this conversation short. It's pretty cold out here and I need to get home. Let's go.

Reginald: I agree. Let's get out of here. I don't feel safe.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1016137 -

Everyone in America has been taught that patriotism is good from schools, the government, the media, and various other institutions. We have been taught that patriots are what made this country great. We have also been taught that nationalism is bad, that it promotes a seclusive mentality, and it makes people blindly follow the government. Throughout human civilized history there has always been a conflict between patriots(the people that follow and love the government) and anti-nationalists(the people who are skeptical and don't trust the government). What would America be like without any patriots or anti-nationalists? Would we have a chaotic society or a more internationally friendly society? Might we be completely unaffected? It would be impossible to argue that patriotism and anti-nationalism do not affect society in any way. They affect the media, religion, public opinion, foreign policies, and many other aspects of our daily life. Positively or negatively, the issues of patriotism and anti-nationalism affect our lives and are important issues today in America. Patriotism and anti-nationalism have a key relationship to one another in that they tend to keep each other in check.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Re: Patriotism [Re: ]
    #1017597 -

The closest thing to patriotism I ever feel is pride for Earth and how many incredible life forms and meaningless yet numerous spectacles it has created.

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
I'm a patriot of the solar-system :-D


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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