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Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
patriotism, nationalism etc.
    #4066134 - 04/17/05 07:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

is it just me, or does this idea bother you? It seems like a way for certain people to justify sending other people to die for them. not to mention its one of the strongest traits of a fascist nation.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: fearfect]
    #4066186 - 04/17/05 08:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

That was really un-american fearfect.... terrorist.  :laugh:

(or whatever country you're from)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4066413 - 04/17/05 09:40 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It's just you. :frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: fearfect]
    #4066462 - 04/17/05 09:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This made me remember when after 9/11, people were hanging flags and ribbons and had their cars sporting the red white and blue. People, strangers were coming together in the streets and bonding through a common concern. That was freaking beautiful to see in this country where neighbors don't even know each other any more and every one is to busy and stressed out to smile and say hi. Other countries were even bonding with us.

Americans are spoiled and we had a chance to appreciate all we have. Remember when there were no planes in the skies for days? That was weird.

Ya know, if we fail to appreciate and care for some basic freedoms and liberties, we can have them taken away from us. Unfortunately, this world is not a free democracy yet. It was just 60 something years ago Japan came after our ass.

I can't stand to consider the life myself as a woman or my daughter would have in some opressive countries.

I'm not sure if this equates with patriotism or nationalism but I think taking care of and appreciation for what you have is a good thing.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066499 - 04/17/05 10:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To appreciate all we have, we would have had to look into why we were attacked instead of just building up a hatred of the terrorists. America has less freedom than most of us want to believe. Most patriotism is based on my country right or wrong, or we can't be wrong because were America, so you better shut up if you don't agree.

We lost many of our freedoms when America decided our bodies and minds are not ours but the cultures.

If you are a true patriot in my book, you better duck. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #4066507 - 04/17/05 10:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Philosophically, I agree... it really is a weird and silly notion to wrap yourself in. But it does wonders for national strength and the ability to endure hardships as a country. I think it was vital for survival of a nation throughout human existence, which is exactly why it is encouraged by every aspect of the government and throughout society.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #4066539 - 04/17/05 10:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Who by now doesn't know why the terrorist hijacked our planes and blew up buildings?

It's because we have our nose in Palestinian Israeli struggle siding with the Israelis because of the money they support our elected officials with.

Is that the fault of the mega millions who make this country up or a handful of corrupt special interest people. I can't hold that against the whole of this country and have it dismiss the good of this place.

Do I consider myself a patriot? More like a citizen who lives here by "choice" and pays taxes.

In some countries, I wouldn't be allowed to wear a bikini to the beach or vote. My daughter and I wouldn't be allowed an education or could be killed for having premarital sex. I can come up with worse. The U.S. isn't perfect or "the" place to be but it is my home by choice for now and if I don't like it, I am free to leave.

I'm pretty sure when my daughter gets college age, hubby and I are headed for the south pacific islands, the more remote the better.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066562 - 04/17/05 10:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Alot of people don't seem to know why it happened. Check out middle america.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


"Is that the fault of the mega millions who make this country up or a handful of corrupt special interest people. I can't hold that against the whole of this country and have it dismiss the good of this place."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes it is. We is the gov. "They" and their policies are supported by at least half and maybe more of americans. You can't blame this on a few people. That's like blaming Hitler for all the Jews killed in Germany and saying it wasn't the fault of the German people also.

I'm not saying their isn't some good here. But for me it's good mostly because there are a lot of worse places.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: fearfect]
    #4066575 - 04/17/05 10:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Being a patriot does not mean being a zombie who follows rules blindly. It means that you question your government to insure that they stay on the path of right. A patriot uses their influence as a voter and a citizen to ensure that their country remains one of the good guys. A patriot NEVER becomes apathetic. If the citizens of all nations held these values there would be world peace and the Holocaust would never have happened. Apathy is the greatest cause of humanitarian disasters in the world. Americans are some of the most apathetic of all voters in the world. The apathy you express is the cause for the things you claim to despise.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: Icelander]
    #4066603 - 04/17/05 10:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I vote independent. What more can I do to get our nose out of the middle east or prevent lobbying?

I don't buy into the government being we the people. I think the electronic voting machines were rigged. Do you know who owns the companies that manufacture them and who they are buddies with?

WTF can I do about it?

How are you responsible for the Israeli Palestinian conflict and our governments reasons for siding with the Israelis any more or less then I am?

paying taxes is the only thing I can think of and what am to to do, cheat and go to jail and have my daughter end up in foster care? I'll take the good with the bad and be appreciative for the good.

Like you said, there are a lot of worse places. I am not ready to full on dis this place. Like I said, if I don't like it that much, I am free to leave.


edit* forgot to run spell check


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/17/05 10:46 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,344
Loc: On the Border
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4066638 - 04/17/05 10:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"there are a lot of worse places. I am not ready to full on dis this place."

I just watched the movie "Hotel Rwanda" about the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. There are many worse places than North America. Vigilance and caring is needed to keep it that way.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4066701 - 04/17/05 11:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"there are a lot of worse places. I am not ready to full on dis this place."

I just watched the movie "Hotel Rwanda" about the genocide in Rwanda in 1994. There are many worse places than North America. Vigilance and caring is needed to keep it that way.




:heart::thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineThe_Walrus
Stranger
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cambridge, Britain
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4067881 - 04/18/05 06:29 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Patriotism is not fascism. Caring about your country and your people is not fascism. Fascism is imposing your will on other countries because you percieve them to be 'sub-human'. In 1930's Germany the true patriots were those who tried to stand up to Hitler, because of what he was doing to their country. If only there were more true patriots, then I am sure life would be so much better for all of us.


--------------------
'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4067886 - 04/18/05 06:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: :handth:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4067887 - 04/18/05 06:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

double post (damn forums)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/18/05 06:35 AM)


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: The_Walrus]
    #4067888 - 04/18/05 06:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

part 3 (same reason)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/18/05 06:35 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068084 - 04/18/05 10:14 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Jiggy says:
WTF can I do about it?
---------------------------------------------------------
Well jiggy, I can think of two things. I only believe one of them works. First you could join a resistance movement like Earth First or some other "patriotic" group and fight every injustice you perceive.

Or

Change yourself into a fully functional human being. Perfect your ability to Love life unconditionally. Then let that love trickle down to all other humans. Quit fighting and start Loving.

Those are the two I can think of.

I don't necessarily mean you in particular are responsible for what's wrong in this country. You just made it sound like there was just a couple of bad guys and the rest of us were just being used against our will. I don't believe that. I grew up in the midwest. :grin: We all bear some responsibility for the way things are good and bad. Some more, some less. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,851
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 21 days, 55 minutes
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068112 - 04/18/05 10:36 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Ya know, if we fail to appreciate and care for some basic freedoms and liberties, we can have them taken away from us. 




Ha, or they can be taken away by manipulating the people with that very patriotism that was so beautiful to see.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: fearfect]
    #4068151 - 04/18/05 11:05 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

patriotism has both good and bad sides...

good sides can be instinctive preservation of culture, art, architecture of one country, and empathy for others (empathy for at least your nation is better than no empathy at all), and bad sides can be war isolation and hate.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: patriotism, nationalism etc. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4068312 - 04/18/05 12:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
It's because we have our nose in Palestinian Israeli struggle siding with the Israelis because of the money they support our elected officials with.



Actually, it's us giving them money, not the other way around. There are many reasons for us supporting Israel, some of them better than others. It's the only stable democracy in the Middle East. It's very important for both the Jewish lobby(which the Democrats rely on) and the Religious Right(which the Republicans rely on). Then there's the collective guilt over that Holocaust stuff.


--------------------


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