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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4637611 - 09/09/05 11:27 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would like to ask you what your definition of a patriot is? Give it in full if you would. Then we can see where we agree if at all.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
Icelander said: I would like to ask you what your definition of a patriot is? Give it in full if you would. Then we can see where we agree if at all.
Being a patriot is doing what is best for your country!
CLAUSE: Most do not know what is best for their country. Most do not care what is best for their country and instead like to pass off an ideology through the guise of being a patriot. Too many pseudo-intellectuals who think they know something, when they do not.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4638238 - 09/09/05 02:21 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I would like to ask you what your definition of a patriot is? Give it in full if you would. Then we can see where we agree if at all.
Being a patriot is doing what is best for your country!
CLAUSE: Most do not know what is best for their country. Most do not care what is best for their country and instead like to pass off an ideology through the guise of being a patriot. Too many pseudo-intellectuals who think they know something, when they do not.
You may want to ask yourself, if you are a patriot, is it good for your country to promote military mentality on an international forum? Does that kind of picture benefit your country? Does it improve the image others have of US and improve relations with other parts of the world.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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You might as well be a reptile.
Or a Reptublican...
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Re: patriotism [Re: Swami]
#4638270 - 09/09/05 02:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would call being a patriot is celebrating what is good about one's country while remaining critical enough to try to improve what is not as good.
Super-Patriotism, on the other hand, is very bad:
Quote:
Superpatriots, writes Michael Parenti, are those people who place national pride and American supremacy above every other public consideration, those who follow leaders uncritically, especially in their war policies abroad. Superpatriotism is the nationalistic hype propagated by officialdom, the media, and various flag-waving groups.
http://www.citylights.com/pub/catalog/BCsuper.html
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MJF
Human Being
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 1,823
Loc: Between 15 and 45 degrees long...
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
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Re: patriotism [Re: Swami]
#4638271 - 09/09/05 02:33 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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i say the idea of a country it stupid anyway.... do whats best for humanity/self
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4638283 - 09/09/05 02:38 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I would like to ask you what your definition of a patriot is? Give it in full if you would. Then we can see where we agree if at all.
Being a patriot is doing what is best for your country!
CLAUSE: Most do not know what is best for their country. Most do not care what is best for their country and instead like to pass off an ideology through the guise of being a patriot. Too many pseudo-intellectuals who think they know something, when they do not.
This says almost nothing. What is best for your country? What are the patriotic values that someone in this country must have. Come on.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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"I live on earth because I was born here. There is where my allegiance is. My aim is to evolve past the separation of individual Govts. This is a process and cannot be done at once. The first step is to become a country of principles and values that reflect what we preach to the world. If we say we care about human life and world peace and love and God. Then we have to quite lying cheating and stealing. Of course actually I don't believe these changes will come about through politics. They are individual changes in the human heart done by ordinary people like you and me. I don't believe majority rules every aspect of my life. I am willing to sacrifice myself for my truth to the best of my ability. If that doesn't jibe with my countrys rules then I am a country unto myself."
Hey-y-y...very nicely said!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
Icelander said: I live on earth because I was born here. There is where my allegiance is. My aim is to evolve past the separation of individual Govts. This is a process and cannot be done at once. The first step is to become a country of principles and values that reflect what we preach to the world. If we say we care about human life and world peace and love and God. Then we have to quite lying cheating and stealing. Of course actually I don't believe these changes will come about through politics. They are individual changes in the human heart done by ordinary people like you and me. I don't believe majority rules every aspect of my life. I am willing to sacrifice myself for my truth to the best of my ability. If that doesn't jibe with my countrys rules then I am a country unto myself.
There we go, you said that very eloquently and not many who share your view could understand that with competence. Now I understand that you have a battle plan toward your goal and that is admirable.
My disagreement with that philosophy is basic. I don't think it will ever happen. I think it is in conflict with human nature. Humans love strife, struggle, death, and war. The average mind is not built to understand, but to follow others and their own instincts. This is what we must work with.
I also view nations as the pinnacle of power consolidation. I believe the nation is one of the sturdiest units of human organization and an effort to expand beyond it in terms of power will be met with dissolution. We'll see in the future with the E.U, but as the latest elections show, nationalist feelings have halted its continuation.
Peace is an impossibility and therefore we must adhere to laws that history has shown us. War will always exist and hence the nation is the basket we must put all our eggs into. Patriotism and love for the nation will ensure the survival of the people inside until we have been conquered by those with more vigor, strength, and love.
It is not perfect, but it is beautiful in its own way.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4639511 - 09/09/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said: Humans love strife, struggle, death, and war.
Then how do you explain me not loving these things? Are you saying I'm an alien, cause if you are, diploid is doing to prove to you I'm not
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
looner2 said: Humans love strife, struggle, death, and war.
Then how do you explain me not loving these things? Are you saying I'm an alien, cause if you are, diploid is doing to prove to you I'm not
Maybe you are weird?
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting
Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4639522 - 09/09/05 08:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
looner2 said: Humans love strife, struggle, death, and war.
Then how do you explain me not loving these things? Are you saying I'm an alien, cause if you are, diploid is doing to prove to you I'm not
Maybe you are weird?
wierd or not, I'm still a human, and I brake your rule about humans
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4641126 - 09/10/05 07:48 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Patriotism is the scoundrels last refuge... Voltaire.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: patriotism [Re: looner2]
#4641607 - 09/10/05 10:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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[to differ.quote]looner2 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I live on earth because I was born here. There is where my allegiance is. My aim is to evolve past the separation of individual Govts. This is a process and cannot be done at once. The first step is to become a country of principles and values that reflect what we preach to the world. If we say we care about human life and world peace and love and God. Then we have to quite lying cheating and stealing. Of course actually I don't believe these changes will come about through politics. They are individual changes in the human heart done by ordinary people like you and me. I don't believe majority rules every aspect of my life. I am willing to sacrifice myself for my truth to the best of my ability. If that doesn't jibe with my countrys rules then I am a country unto myself.
There we go, you said that very eloquently and not many who share your view could understand that with competence. Now I understand that you have a battle plan toward your goal and that is admirable.
My disagreement with that philosophy is basic. I don't think it will ever happen. I think it is in conflict with human nature. Humans love strife, struggle, death, and war. The average mind is not built to understand, but to follow others and their own instincts. This is what we must work with.
I also view nations as the pinnacle of power consolidation. I believe the nation is one of the sturdiest units of human organization and an effort to expand beyond it in terms of power will be met with dissolution. We'll see in the future with the E.U, but as the latest elections show, nationalist feelings have halted its continuation.
Peace is an impossibility and therefore we must adhere to laws that history has shown us. War will always exist and hence the nation is the basket we must put all our eggs into. Patriotism and love for the nation will ensure the survival of the people inside until we have been conquered by those with more vigor, strength, and love.
It is not perfect, but it is beautiful in its own way.
Looner you and I are going to die soon. When that happens it will not matter what country we came from.
You are most likely right if history is any indication, that man is warlike and fear driven for the most part. It may always be that way, but we cannot be sure. You have to account for people like myself and OldWood ect. We may be the beginning of a new evolutionary paridigm. But again most likely there have always been just a few like us, (weird as you put it. ).
So you get to make a choice which tribe you will be in. There is really only two in my book. Warriors or average men/women. My defination of a warrior has challenges and standards far above what my country and the average man aspires to.
I have never been to war but I have had a gun in my face twice and another time I was shot at over 10 times with a rifle and had to do some pretty fancy/lucky dodging. That was stressful but I was mostly on automatic pilot. It didn't take courage to survive.
What has been a much more stressfull and challenging path is my so called path of a warrior. It is the unconditional acceptance and love of life exactally as it is in each moment of my life. To love unconditionally is one of the most challenging things any human can undertake in this world of war. It takes much more courage, and indurance than anything I know of and most would rather die, or live with their head in the sand then try it. You are on call every minute.
A warrior will fight and die for what he believes in and nothing else. No one can tell him to believe in something not already in his heart and mind and he is strong enough to think for himself/herself. What a challenge!
This is my tribe. I have only found a few brothers and sisters in many years of looking, but I am more than satisfied.
So looner, when I die and nothing matters, I will laugh, and I will be a warrior. And the average human beings will never notice.
Whenever America aspires, even in part to the warriors code, I will be there to defend her. And I will call bullshit, bullshit.
Finally, as to your claim that use of psychedelics is a weakness. I can say the shamanic use of psychedelics has been some of my greatest challenge and greatest benefit to my personal path. So I beg to differ
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/10/05 01:47 PM)
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