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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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sawdust spawn
    #9844729 -

I was wondering if anyone had experience inoculating UNSUPPLEMENTED sawdust using grain or liquid culture and then expanding it on supplemented sawdust. Stamets suggest making sawdust spawn with no supplements.  I know mushrooms would not fruit as well (YIELDS) which is not the purpose of spawn.  but it seems the spawn would less suseptable to contamination. Is the following step up procedure justified to produce high yields for wood decomposing mushrooms?  GRAIN OR LIQUID TO UNSUPPLEMENTED SAWDUST SPAWN TO SUPPLEMENTED SAWDUST FRUITING SUBSTRATE.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9844917 -

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Off topic in advanced mycology.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9845005 -

RR
Hello,
I noticed in a thread you suggested supplementing sawdust spawn
Stamets suggest not supplementing sawdust spawn page 152 of GGMM
Why, or do you disagree?
 

To clarify when I used the term spawn,  I am not referring to fruiting substrate. I am referring to the material used to exponentiate mycelia before seeding fruiting substrate

Edited by wood chip (02/22/09 06:21 PM)

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9845071 -

Because I disagree with the whole concept of sawdust spawn.  Sawdust doesn't make very good spawn anyway, and since a fruiting substrate needs supplementation to perform well, I don't even make sawdust spawn.  I use grains to expand the mycelium, and then use those grains to inoculate the sawdust.  They get supplementation from the grain spawn, as well as the wheat bran I mix into the sawdust.

If you do chose to make sawdust spawn, the supplementation doesn't really hurt anything anyway, provided you keep everything sterile.  If overheating were the main concern, simply colonize at a lower temperature.
RR


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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9846394 -

RR
My main concern is contamination due to the more available nutrients.  As Stamets mentions  sawdust points of inoculation are much greater.  If grains are used to inoculate enriched sawdust and the subsequent spawn is further used to inoculate more enriched sawdust (which I think a  common practice in Japan and Golden gourmet in which huge step ups are made in bottles Although the spawn they uses may differ between the two stages)  It seems contamination rates would be higher if using a spawn and fruiting substrate consisting of enriched sawdust.  Have you seen a real benefit considering wheat bran also cost extra money and requires longer sterilization times?  Again I am referring to the use of spawn (AS A BRIDGE BETWEEN GRAIN AND THE FRUITING SUBSTRATE) as a inoculation tool, not a fruiting substrate which of course without question increases yields.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9847709 -

Quote:
(AS A BRIDGE BETWEEN GRAIN AND THE FRUITING SUBSTRATE) as a inoculation tool, not a fruiting substrate which of course without question increases yields.


I disagree with the whole concept of sawdust to sawdust mycelium expansion.  Much of what you read in TMC and GGMM is dated and there's better ways to do it.  The extra sterilization times to me is a moot point.  If I'm going to load the material into filter patch bags and fire up the pressure cooker, it makes little difference if I run it for an hour or if I run it for two hours.  I always supplement sawdust.  A 20kg bag of wheat bran only costs ten dollars and goes a long way. 

In addition, another method is to sterilize some rye berries on the surface of the sawdust in your filter patch bags, and then you can inoculate it similar to a grain to grain transfer, where one quart jar of colonized rye can inoculate ten sawdust/woodchip bags.  Once the rye on the surface colonizes in a week or so, simply knead the bag to distribute the grains.  To answer your question though, I don't experience a higher rate of contamination doing it this way.  Everything is in filter patch bags and inoculation takes place in front of a laminar flow hood.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9848086 -

I thought sawdust to sawdust is one of the most efficient ways to expand mycelium for the following reason:
The points of incoulation are far greater than grain.
Only direct liquid inoculation would be better, but that seems suited for the most advance cultivators and know one has published clear techniques for the home cultivator yet, including Stamets himself, and for good reason.  Spawn companies that sell sawdust and grain spawn may loose money if farms reliant on them switch to different and possibly much better, cheaper and easier spawning methods. Who knows.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9848637 -

I've found that supplemented sawdust spawn contaminates easily when spawning to bulk.  A good compromise here would be millet or sorghum/milo (WBS).  The grains are smaller so you'll get more of that surface area you're looking for.


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9848749 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6817701#6817701

Here is a link to Agar's tek on making liquid mycelium from colonized grain spawn.  I am far from an advanced grower, but this tek appears to be fairly simple and I'm going to give it a shot.  I ordered some vacu-tainers from the Mad Season.  They have an injection port that can be used to make lids like agar uses.  I also found the Whatman syringe filters on ebay for $2.00/ea. 

As far as grains go, like Paresthesis stated, millet or wbs is going to be the smallest.  Milo, which I am currently using, is a little larger.  Closer to the size of rye berries with spherical grains as opposed to elliptical.


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ReUse! RePurpose! ReCycle!  "Mom says use it again!"

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: LokelYokel]
    #9848828 -

The harder seed coat also makes WBS spawn easier to break up, but busted kernels also seem to be an issue for me with it.

Unsupplemented sawdust spawn definitely has its uses.  I think it's a better method of log/stump inoculation, but that requires specialized tools and the added step of waxing over inoculation points.  I've also been using it to put in outdoor pioppino and king stropharia beds. The fact that its so low in nitrogen makes it a better choice than grain, which attracts pests.  Last week I found a goddamned fire ant bed in one of the outdoor elm oyster boxes I'd inoculated using grain (oat) spawn.  (DE took care of that!)


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: Paresthesia]
    #9851307 -

What is WBS?

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9851342 -

Wild Bird Seed.


--------------------
Master Slants Made Simple

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9851817 -

R. Rabbit
I think we have to side with Stamets recommendation.  He claims his recomendations are based on thousands or hours of experience and proposes the reasons, which are stated above and printed on page 152 and 153 of GGMM.  You give no clear reason for your disagreement on the whole concept of sawdust to sawdust.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9851859 -

Well...he does have 10+ years of experience  :rolleyes:


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Master Slants Made Simple

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9851974 -

I just noticed this post http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7202106
I am not talking about colonization speed which is nearly the same using grain or sawdust in my experience But the amount of sawdust spawn needed is much less.  In other words, The number of quart jars you can inoculate with one quart jar of sawdust spawn in much greater than the number you can inoculate using one quart jar of grain spawn.  The whole point of the thread however was related to weather it is beneficial  to use un supplemented sawdust spawn as the mycelium vehicle to supplemented sawdust fruiting substrate in order to limit contamination during inoculation.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9852536 -

I read Stamet's books when I started growing mushrooms and no doubt he knows what he is doing.  That said, I can guarantee you that I have learned way more from lurking around here and reading RR's and others(who I'm pretty sure are not PS) than I have from his books.  There are obviously several perfectly viable ways to do things and seems to me you should use whatever teks are comfortable for you and get the results you are looking for.  While searching for those, please don't lump me in when you say things like, "I think we have to side with Stamets recommendation.".  If you chose to do exactly like your hero, great!  I chose to have an open mind and try to learn new things.

I would like to thank RR for his informative posts and his DVDs.  After watching the Dvds multiple times it is his voice in my head when I read his posts.  Maybe that is a little weird, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that happens to.


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ReUse! RePurpose! ReCycle!  "Mom says use it again!"

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: LokelYokel]
    #9852608 -

LokelYokel said:
I can guarantee you that I have learned way more from lurking around here and reading RR's and others(who I'm pretty sure are not PS) than I have from his books.


Agreed. I have learned way more on this site than from any of Stamets' books. They are a great resource but compared to the wealth of information that you can find on this site they are lacking.
wood chips, if you are dubious to weather or not RR is right why don't you do some experiments of your own and post your findings?
I would supplement the sawdust you use for spawn... but I don't ever use sawdust spawn so...


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PC's LAGM 2021 (TOC & TWC)
P. natalensis Growlog 2021
Pans for PC Fall 2021 Growlog

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear


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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: PitcherCrab]
    #9853090 -

Lokel and Crab
If RR says to jump off a building to become fee would you ?

This is a point that is important.  I think RR would agree that its wise to question the most respected cultivators for the conclusions they draw since they have more experience.  He does not seem sensitive.  I am not being and can see nothing that could be construed as a offensive.  Just because I questioned his reasons for his disagreement.  I doubt he has ever done or cares to do what I am questioning in this post which again Does using unsupplemented sawdust spawn to supplemented sawdust fruiting substrate reduce contamination.

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9853283 -

wood chip said:
Lokel and Crab
If RR says to jump off a building to become free would you ?



I follow advice which yields results and I've seen a lot of good results from following RR's advice.

Lets get this thread back on track...

wood chip said:
Does using unsupplemented sawdust spawn to supplemented sawdust fruiting substrate reduce contamination.


I'd have to say no. Why would it? If you sterilize your substrates, which you have to do with sawdust, why would it matter if you used unsupplemented or supplemented sawdust spawn? I think the main reason grain in generally used is because it won't clump together like wet sawdust can which can create anaerobic pockets in the spawn, which definitely would increase your chance of contamination. But I've never used sawdust as spawn so thats all speculation. I hope you find the answer your looking for.


--------------------
PC's LAGM 2021 (TOC & TWC)
P. natalensis Growlog 2021
Pans for PC Fall 2021 Growlog

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear


Edited by PitcherCrab (02/24/09 12:25 AM)

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Re: sawdust spawn (moved) [Re: wood chip]
    #9853304 -

If RR posts a grow log of a tek that incorporates jumping off a building with several documented successes, then if I feel I have access to the supplies and equipment to pull off a similar grow, the answer to your question would be yes. 

Look, I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you about whose mycological schlong is longer.  I just think you should read the advice that is graciously put out there and if you don't agree with it, then just ignore it and don't tell people who the should side with.

RR, I'm sure, took some offense to your post but chose not to respond because he knows better than you or I that the mushrooms don't like bickering.


--------------------
ReUse! RePurpose! ReCycle!  "Mom says use it again!"

Edited by LokelYokel (02/24/09 12:42 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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