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The Aesthetics of Dreams
    #9795050 -

Info: Sorry for the horrible grammar, I was wrote this in Notepad and just copy and pasted it here. I hope it makes sense.

this one is kinda of a bummer but i just thought it should be known: dreams. dreams are the manifestation of the mind's ultimate goal. the mind's ultimate goal is to achieve knowledge, that's what it was made for. so, throughout the lifetime the mind collects and collects and collects. it collects until it realizes something. the mind thinks:"Crap, wtf is gonna happen after i die? how is it going to feel? is there an after-life and will it be favorable to my 'needs'?". And even though the mind probably comes to terms with the unattainable (adulthood), the wound doesn't heal. the mind delves off into other directions, but that thirst for that "golden" piece of knowledge remains in the subconscious. it lays there, where it builds up like pent energy. every night, when one goes to sleep, the consciousness (senses) shuts down, and the subconscious goes to work. and its work is glorious. the subconscious is the most sympathetic thing in the human body, probably even in other animals as well. the mind will go to unseen lengths in order to provide you with a glimpse of what the afterlife could look like. the subconscious shows you different versions of the afterlife could look like. it puts on beautiful sensations to all senses without anywhere near the amount of stress caused by actual stimuli. the result is an otherworld-ly cinema without restrictions (laws, life, etc). all of this just to satisfy your most basic need of all, knowledge.

Discuss.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9795425 -

Dreams do hold the keys to our innermost desires. It's like your subconscious (sometimes)leaking into your conscious mind and forming a dialogue. But the only way to subject that dialogue to critical analysis in the waking world, is to have the capacity to remember them(individual dialogues).

You can learn a lot about yourself by keeping close track of your dreams. They let you know how you truly feel about people and situations. And you can draw numerous symbols from them. They're abstractions of your 'true' self. And they display how fluid your identity truly is.


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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #9795456 -

I totally believe in what you said.

In my first post, I guess this was my raw interpretations of what dreams in general are. Basically, I wanted to break down what factors of evolution lead us to having the ability to dream. Our bodies hope to some day run even more efficient than they do now. Thus, I don't think dreams are just a mere coincidence.

Your post is mainly like an epilogue (or is it prologue? lol). Like I said before, I'm just thinking of the bare skeleton of dreams.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9795490 -

Humans hold the craving for more. It's what put us where we are today. The desire will always be there.

You mentioned how animals dream and I agree, I think they do. But humans are the only ones that can take away from them. We are past the point of animal nature and instinct. That's why I tend to think humans are required to have a soul. They are the first and the last of the possible object/outcome of thought on this planet and maybe even in the entire universe.

It's the how that baffles us all. Maybe it starts with dreams and ends with dreams. :shrug:


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Edited by DR. PRIME (02/14/09 12:59 PM)

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #9795555 -

ScYiNs47 said:
We are past the point of animal nature and instinct. That's why I tend to think humans are required to have a soul...It's the how that baffles us all. Maybe it starts with dreams and ends with dreams. :shrug:


Errr... I'm finding this post rather questionable. In the first part you state we are past the point of animal nature. I think that's wrong. An easy example would be to leave a human in a box for a couple of days w/o food. Now I don't know this from experience, but I'm willing to bet they would exhibit the same characteristics as any other animal.

If what you meant instead was that we now evolve for other features other than that of "animals", then I don't know how to respond. I would think that we would perfect our "abilities", but now that you mention it, being "just" good enough would probably be ideal for the body.

In the second part of the quote, I always thought it was the why that baffles us, not the how?

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9795613 -

I guess it would be both the why and how.

We know the who, what, and where fairly easily already.

I think the why is like you said, to learn. What else is there? Learning is the only thing that keeps anything going. Passing knowledge, receiving knowledge, restart..

As far as animal nature goes. If you lock up a human w/o food most would resort to animal-like tendencies, but not all. Humans have choice and discernment. One may choose to let the body take them for a ride, instinctual. And another may choose to overcome/persevere, intellectual. Animals have No choice. They will always resort to the instinctual.

And with dreams, we as humans can either take away the basic necessity from them, such as organizing thoughts to be able to cope with painful things in physical life. Or discern something much more profound and meaningful and apply it through trial and error.


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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9795674 -

Interesting idea. I'm guessing that is only one of the many things our dreams do for us. Lets not get carried away with certainties that are not.

I find dreaming one of the best things about having a human brain. I look forward even to my uncomfortable dreams. I occasionally have lucid dreams and many of my dreams take place on other worlds and so that makes sense as I'm not completely at home in this one.  As Steely Dan said. "Any world that I wake up to is better than the one that I come from".  Still you can have a lot of fun here if you turn off (to some small degree) the Culture controlling your thoughts.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: Icelander]
    #9795786 -

Quote:
Lets not get carried away with certainties that are not.


No certainties, of course. I tend to think that these boards are here for the sole purpose that we can come here and talk freely about opinions. But obviously that isn't a certainty. If you know what I mean. :crazy2:

Quote:
Still you can have a lot of fun here if you turn off (to some small degree) the Culture controlling your thoughts.


"Culture is our operating system." -Terrence McKenna

I'm not even that familiar with most of his work but from that statement alone I know he was one of the most innovative thinkers of our time. And your statement seems derived from that general idea.


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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: Icelander]
    #9795944 -

Icelander said:
Lets not get carried away with certainties that are not.


Sorry about that, I know my writing style sort of "states" things but I know about that "everything is uncertain" train of thought. I often find it easier to state things in my mind because it sets the question. If I question a question, I'll probably end up thinking of why I'm thinking and I can't question that because that creates a never ending loop and one big headache.:tongue:

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9797438 -

I tend to think that dreams are a literally a different realm of their own, each dream having particular "concomitant laws", if you will. That being said, I think that dreams are no less real than the reality we experience during our waking state.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9800613 -

I have a different opinion about dreams.  When the body rests it takes the time to re-nourish and heal itself.  While the brain is at rest, the mind takes this opportunity to do some housework. It rearranges memories and thoughts in an attempt to keep itself in proper working order. The images and thoughts we remember after sleep, are simply the results of the maintenance being performed. Dreams are not a look into the future, or your subconscious.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: HoldEarthHostage]
    #9800658 -

Quote:
HoldEarthHostage said:the subconscious is the most sympathetic thing in the human body, probably even in other animals as well. the mind will go to unseen lengths in order to provide you with a glimpse of what the afterlife could look like. the subconscious shows you different versions of the afterlife could look like. it puts on beautiful sensations to all senses without anywhere near the amount of stress caused by actual stimuli. the result is an otherworld-ly cinema without restrictions (laws, life, etc). all of this just to satisfy your most basic need of all, knowledge.

Discuss.


have you never had a bad dream? or nightmare?

i would argue...that the subconcious does provide actual stimuli.

i've woken up to a beating heart or deep feelings of saddness because of my dreams. hardly sympathetic.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9800684 -

Well while it rearranges you get a perspective from first person, to omniscient, to third person, the works. And you remember it. It may just be arranging, but it's also doing it symbolically and sort of poetically. There is definitely a dialogue going on. And not to mention, you can explore the dream world when lucid. And have meaningful conversations with strangers. And reference them when awake, word for word, emotion for emotion.

It's like your subconscious expressing itself in a form of art.


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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #9800921 -

ScYiNs47 said:
It's like your subconscious expressing itself in a form of art.


Would you agree that the waking state is our consciousness expressing itself in a form of art?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #9800983 -

Yes, except most people lack the capacity to express themselves correctly. You can only communicate correctly if you truly know your self fully.

And the subconscious is an excellent tool for self perception.


Also, I think language is the tool of expression for the conscious world. Not the waking state itself. And art has many forms too. But they all start with the self. No self, no art.

art
–noun
1. the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.(evoking emotion)
2. the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings


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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #9801039 -

"Yes, except most people lack the capacity to express themselves correctly."

Those are some pretty harsh words, don't you think? Wouldn't you rather say that most people lack the ability, instead?

In any case, art can't be looked at in terms of "correct" or "incorrect".


"You can only communicate correctly if you truly know your self fully."

What is "communicating correctly"? What does it mean to "know your self fully", and how many people do you think have actually accomplished doing this?


"And the subconscious is an excellent tool for self perception."

Would you agree that consciousness is an excellent tool for subconscious perception?


"Also, I think language is the tool of expression for the conscious world. Not the waking state itself. And art has many forms too. But they all start with the self. No self, no art."

What language do you speak when you are dreaming then? What's the difference between the "conscious world" and the waking state?

What is "the self"? By "the self", are you referring to an individual's consciousness? If so, then don't you think it is indefatigably self-evident that without consciousness, there would be no art?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #9802028 -

C.M. Mann said:
The images and thoughts we remember after sleep, are simply the results of the maintenance being performed. Dreams are not a look into the future, or your subconscious.


That's actually a pretty interesting concept. Thinking back, I remember hearing once that children born with handicaps, say for example blindness, have dreams that involve every sensory input EXCEPT for sight. Your concept supports this claim.

As for whether dreams can look into the future or not, I'll leave that to someone else. :]

TameMe said:
have you never had a bad dream? or nightmare?
i would argue...that the subconscious does provide actual stimuli.



When I mentioned stimuli, I meant relatively a WHOLE lot less than actual stimuli. If they were anywhere near the same, a lot of people would die in their sleep, lol.

Actually, believe it or not I'm neurotic. I see horrible things every day, in my head. But even though, I can't help but appreciate ALL thoughts because I like figuring out the "why" in things (even though none of my answers may ever be right).

As for nightmares, I've come to the point where I enjoy them. I actually function right in those situations, almost to the point where it seems like I'm lucid dreaming.

The only nightmare that I still can't handle is that feeling of falling. It feels like I'm going a million miles per hour downward and it always wakes me up.

ScYiNs47 said:
There is definitely a dialogue going on.


Noteworthy quote. Although bluntly apparent now, dreams always do sort of "flow". And while that doesn't mean they make sense, the events that happen are coherent.

Poid said:
Would you agree that the waking state is our consciousness expressing itself in a form of art?


Art? Well I suppose you can literally define our consciousness as art. I think this is more a humanist question rather than one that can actually, concretely be defined.

Poid said:
Those are some pretty harsh words, don't you think? Wouldn't you rather say that most people lack the ability, instead?


Nothing is ever too harsh. Not only in the "real" world but, even in a theoretically infinite universe (aka Earth and Space and stuff), there will always be something harsher than the previous.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #9802050 -

Poid said:
Would you agree that consciousness is an excellent tool for subconscious perception?


I agree completely with Freud in this. I like to think of the consciousness as a "binary computer" (example: 1001010110101). Everyone's code is different, but everyone has a pattern. That pattern is the subconscious and the actual input (again the 100101010100) is the conscious.

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: Poid]
    #9802327 -

Yes, I think it's safe to say without consciousness, there is no art. But what is consciousness? All consciousness really means to me is self-awareness.

When you dream, you dream in concepts and stories, and like I've been saying, a dialogue. -It would be nice to consider the entire thread instead of just nitpicking sentence-by-sentence. -

And no, I don't agree that consciousness is an excellent tool for subconscious perception. You make it sound as if we have a choice but to be awake. You can even try to sleep all day, but you will still wake up sometime and be thinking and guiding your own will. It's not a tool, it's reality. When we are awake we can choose what to do, and what influence we have in the world and how the world affects us.

Dreams are more uncontrollable and leak concepts, ideas, and emotions that you don't necessarily realize when in a situation/circumstance in the waking world.


"What is "the self"? By "the self", are you referring to an individual's consciousness?"

Yes, but I don't see consciousness as anything more than something of the self.

Quote:
Would you agree that the waking state is our consciousness expressing itself in a form of art?


Where is the our here? My consciousness is not your consciousness. The physical waking life isn't our consciousness, it's an expression of every ones' individual consciousness. I agree with your statement except for the our part.

Consciousness can't be done on a whole scale, you're you, I'm me. You're not saying my words, nor I yours. How can you even sit there and pretend there is such a thing as an accumulation of consciousness when that is least evident of all? Maybe at death but not at all in life is consciousness a whole. So it's always individual. You're going in circles with this. And death is a whole different story, so let's not go there.

Language/literature is the way to express concepts in the waking world, and yes words are limiting. But you can communicate your side effectively if done correctly, that is, if the person is able to interpret it the way you intended. And yes, not everyone does have the capacity. Some people draw what they want instead of what's there, and that is incompetence.


"What does it mean to "know your self fully", and how many people do you think have actually accomplished doing this?"

Knowing yourself is up to you. Like I said before, identity is fluid. We are the craftsman, and can shape ourselves to however we want. And our subconscious can tell us a lot about what that really means to us. We have individual desires, and that's what makes us separate. Some people are more in touch with their desires than others, therefore more able to express themselves than someone who isn't. But from there it gets even more complicated because communicating those perceptions to others in art is something only few can do. And by art I mean, writing, speaking, and even conventional works(drawing, painting, etc..)

That is why there are techniques to literature that have proven to work at expressing and conveying messages properly, in a discernible and communicable order. Ever been in English class?

It's the individual's job, if they even want others to understand them, which some people just don't because they are too busy coming to new conclusions to have solid grounds to ever feel a need to try to express themselves. But that's the difference between INTP's and INTJ's. And the only reason I mention those personality types is because those are the two most prevelant in being able to express oneself, which others definitely lack. Plus most people in this forum are probably either one or the other and that's why we tend to come here and express our logic.

The INTJ is able to draw conclusions and act upon them, while the INTP brings things to a level of INCAPACITY at fully expressing what it is they're trying to say, usually asking unsolvable questions and going in circles in conversations.

So capacity is indeed the word I wanted, I just had to express the whole thought for you to understand why. Not everyone can write a book. And even if they can, not necessarily one that gets it's point across fully(incorrect).


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Edited by DR. PRIME (02/15/09 03:02 PM)

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Re: The Aesthetics of Dreams [Re: DR. PRIME]
    #9802913 -

I love the billowy feel of dreams, it's like everything is drenched in fuzz.

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