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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9428685 -

it stars saddam said:
I would still have to overcome their doubts as to whether or not it would be a "throwaway vote."  If people didn't play along with the two-party charade so willingly, the concept of a "throwaway vote" would be irrelevant if not outright non-existent. 


This is untrue - your two-party system is enforced by the electoral system more than entrenched beliefs. Without preferential voting, it is impossible for a third-party candidate to win in America. It's not a matter of changing people's attitudes about voting third-party, because third-party candidates are marginalised by the mechanics of the election.

Bring in preferential voting and maybe you'll see the third-party candidates have some power. Better yet, mixed member proportional representation. America is supposed to be this great democratic institution but its electoral system is terribly old-fashioned.

New Zealand, with an MMPR system, has seven parties in the House. Seven!

Edited by zouden (12/14/08 07:34 AM)

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9429275 -

zouden said:
I agree that Nader is one of the few decent politicians out there and I have endless admiration for him. But if he hadn't run in 2000 then Bush wouldn't have narrowly defeated Gore, and the world would be quite a different place.

The results of the 2000 election clearly show that vote spoiling is a real effect and can have drastic results. The US electoral system needs to change.


Duh.

This is the whole point. A third party spoiling an election for a major party is preferable because it shows that party that many of its voters are not happy with them.  If it continually happens, the major party will be forced to either adopt some of the policy planks held by the minor party or continue to lose election after election.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Redstorm]
    #9430116 -

Redstorm said:
zouden said:
I agree that Nader is one of the few decent politicians out there and I have endless admiration for him. But if he hadn't run in 2000 then Bush wouldn't have narrowly defeated Gore, and the world would be quite a different place.

The results of the 2000 election clearly show that vote spoiling is a real effect and can have drastic results. The US electoral system needs to change.


Duh.

This is the whole point. A third party spoiling an election for a major party is preferable because it shows that party that many of its voters are not happy with them.  If it continually happens, the major party will be forced to either adopt some of the policy planks held by the minor party or continue to lose election after election.


yep, and the libertarians could have one it for gore.  He lost.  Maybe he should have tried to broaden his appeal.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: johnm214]
    #9430291 -

2000?  Don't make me laugh.  Nader drew little more than flies.  If you want to look at an election where a third party fucked another party over look at 1992.  Ross Perot put Bill Clinton in office.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9430311 -

Well what definition are you using then?  I'm saying if the number who voted for the third party is greater than the numbers that would be needed, in the relevant locations, to win the election for a given party, then the third party threw the election.  I like when that happens :smile:

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9430332 -

zappaisgod said:
2000?  Don't make me laugh.  Nader drew little more than flies.  If you want to look at an election where a third party fucked another party over look at 1992.  Ross Perot put Bill Clinton in office.


Because you say so, huh?

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9430469 -

zouden said:
This is untrue - your two-party system is enforced by the electoral system more than entrenched beliefs. Without preferential voting, it is impossible for a third-party candidate to win in America. It's not a matter of changing people's attitudes about voting third-party, because third-party candidates are marginalised by the mechanics of the election.


Yet the people's attitudes and entrenched beliefs - in particular the politicians' - will support those mechanics, so that bringing in multiple member systems will be just as difficult as bringing in a third party victor. As far as most Americans are concerned, it seems, third parties are loonies or spoilers, and so deserve no place in their politics - and certainly our two-party government will have no qualms with that.

I agree with you that multiple member representation would be helpful, but I can't see referenda passing for that any quicker than would pass referenda for third-party inclusion on televised debates and in press coverage, especially without any third-party representation in Congress.


--------------------
No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zannennagara]
    #9431334 -

zannennagara said:
I agree with you that multiple member representation would be helpful, but I can't see referenda passing for that any quicker than would pass referenda for third-party inclusion on televised debates and in press coverage, especially without any third-party representation in Congress.


A referenda could pass... as long as it had support from the party in power. You'd need Obama (or someone) to decide to bring in MMP. That's... probably not going to happen.

And Zappa: you really think Nader didn't affect the outcome of the 2000 election? Have a look at the vote count in Florida, the key state.
George W. Bush (W) 2,912,790
Al Gore 2,912,253
Ralph Nader 97,421

Bush won by 537 votes.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Redstorm]
    #9431668 -

Redstorm said:
This is the whole point. A third party spoiling an election for a major party is preferable because it shows that party that many of its voters are not happy with them.  If it continually happens, the major party will be forced to either adopt some of the policy planks held by the minor party or continue to lose election after election.


I hate that the third party candidates are considered only in the context of their impact on the two-party monopoly.  They deserve to be taken seriously as candidates.

Why do you think it is that Ralph Nader wasn't allowed to participate in the debates?  Watch some of the speeches he gave during this year's election and you'll quickly realize that it's because he is asking questions that the Republicrats do not want to answer.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9435493 -

Whiny bitches need to get their stories straight about 2000.  First, it was stolen, in which case votes for Nader were irrelevant.  Then it was that the votes cast for Nader were a mistake because the ballot was too confusing for Gore voters, in which case "Turnip" would have done as much damage.  In one state.  Nader drew how many votes nationwide?  Less than 3%.

In 1992, what happened?
Perot drew nearly 20% of the vote, almost all of which came from conservatives.  Clinton beat Bush by less than 6%.  Now that was 3rd party candidate with some muscle.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9435566 -

That 3% was roughly five and a half times the margin of victory for the 2000 election, so I would say it certainly counts.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Redstorm]
    #9435582 -

"Turnip" would have had the same effect.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9435598 -

Says you.

Would "Turnip" have drawn disproportionate numbers of liberal voters compared to conservative ones, though?

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: Redstorm]
    #9436168 -

Apparently.  That is the argument Gore supporters have made for quite some years.  That the Florida ballot was too confusing and they mistakenly punched Nader.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9436688 -

Totally understandable.  I constantly find myself confusing Al Gore and Ralph Nader.  Both of their names are spelled using the English alphabet, and neither of them are African Americans, so the lines tend to blur.

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9438037 -

zappaisgod said:
Apparently.  That is the argument Gore supporters have made for quite some years.  That the Florida ballot was too confusing and they mistakenly punched Nader.


1. No, that was Pat Buchanan they accidentally punched. The votes for Nader were votes for Nader.
2. We all know that Perot split the conservative vote in 1992. That is well documented.
3. It is also well documented that Nader has been splitting the liberal vote for years. In 2000, that vote split was larger than the margin between democrats and republicans. Hence, Nader affected the outcome of the 2000 election in the same way that Perot affected the outcome of the 1992 election.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9438725 -

And in 1992 the split was much larger due to Perot.  Nader's influence in 2000 boiled down to 1 state.  Perot's was nationwide.  If Gore had carried his own state he would have won no matter what happened in Florida.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9439040 -

But that's irrelevant. The 2000 election came down to one state. Amid all the fuss over "hanging chads" and the recount it was easy to forget that Nader had collected far more votes than the margin.

If Nader wasn't running, there would have been no recount, and no talk about hanging chads. Gore would have won Florida, and the presidency.

Sure, Perot took more votes in 1992 - much more - but both Nader and Perot had the same effect in those respective elections.

Clearly, the electoral system needs to change so that vote spoiling is not an issue. The solution is pretty easy really: enable voters to choose more than one candidate at a time. Dozens of countries already do this, if not the majority of them.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zouden]
    #9439108 -

Won't ever happen.


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Re: the joe-the-plumber meme... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9439142 -

No :sad:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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