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 zorbman blarrr   Registered: 06/04/04 Posts: 5,952 |
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Actually Roman coins were made from a number of metals. The aureus was made of gold and the denarious was made of silver. There were other coins made of bronze and silver. I think our friend may have been confusing fiat currency with the progressive debasement of their currency which the Romans indulged in and which coincided with the decline of their empire. In other words, each succeeding generation of coins contained less and less of the base metal which fooled people for a while just as our dollar has been progressively devalued over time. I realize no system created by man is perfect but I think having a monetary system which does not rely upon deception is not too much too ask. -------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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 zouden Neuroscientist   Registered: 11/12/07 Posts: 7,091 Loc: Australia Last seen: 17 years, 14 days |
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> I realize no system created by man is perfect but I think having a monetary system which does not rely upon deception is not too much too ask.
Indeed. I think that the value of money is entirely perceived. If we think it's valuable then it is; if we don't think it's valuable, then it won't be. Being made of silver or gold doesn't change that, because the value of silver or gold is not inherent either. There is no commodity that has an inherent fixed value, so there's no point trying to peg the currency to one. -------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Trepiodos Disgustipated   Registered: 07/01/06 Posts: 469 Loc: Los Angeles Coun Last seen: 17 years, 9 days |
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Ahem... The wild swings in the stock market are indications of major systemic problems (brought about by DECADES of market and monetary interference by BOTH major political parties) in a system that is collapsing. Daily swings have been quite wide for a while now. In a system out of balance, fluctuations can become greater and greater until total failure occurs. We are able to observe this in our current fiat money/debt based system which is UNSUSTAINABLE. No country in history has ever been able to go deeper and deeper into debt or continue to debase its currency and avoid an economic reckoning.
To think that a one day or a few day swing in one direction or another are indications of anything other than market players attempting to profit from emotional responses is economically naive. One cannot judge the benefits of economic policy or appointments from one day DOW swings. To do so, displays ignorance or self-serving attempts to bolster one's tenuous political positions in the eyes of others who are as of yet, not educated on the nature of economics. "What luck for the rulers that men do not think." - Adolph Hitler -------------------- 
And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked' Edited by Trepiodos (11/22/08 09:46 AM)
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Mr.Al Alphabet soup  Registered: 05/27/07 Posts: 5,388 Loc: N.S.A. D.C. Last seen: 2 years, 9 months |
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What you don't appear to be looking at is that using precious metals as a medium of exchange (or a currency backed solidly by gold and silver) PREVENTS government from inflating, and thus devaluing, the money circulating.
What you are not seeing is that the value of the money in circulation is dependent upon the ratio of medium of exchange and the ACTUAL goods and services of the economy. The federal reserve is able to inflate and devalue our dollar BECAUSE it is not, as you say, "pegged" to a precious metal.
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zappaisgod horrid asshole  Registered: 02/11/04 Posts: 81,741 Loc: Fractallife's gy Last seen: 10 years, 4 months |
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Apparently the NY Times also agrees with me and Powerline: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/2
Why would anybody think a Sec State nomination would impact the Stock market much in any direction? Faulty reasoning is why. -------------------- 
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Redstorm Prince of Bugs   Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 years, 3 days |
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He wasn't actually stating that the SoS nomination affected the markets. He was using it as an example as why believing that the election of Obama leading to the market decline is silly. Anyone who believes that, in light of all the problems that are occurring right now that have nothing to do with the election, is a goddamn idiot and should probably just unplug their internet and turn off their computer.
Familiar? I'm sure I don't have to explain it to you.
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zorbman blarrr Registered: 06/04/04 Posts: 5,952 |
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Yes but precious metals have one unique property in that their value cannot ever reach zero unlike fiat currency; They will always retain at a minimum the value inherent in the effort it took to mine them. -------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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zappaisgod horrid asshole Registered: 02/11/04 Posts: 81,741 Loc: Fractallife's gy Last seen: 10 years, 4 months |
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There is nothing spurious about believing that an avowed Marxist who has announced an intention to raise income taxes on the successful, capital gains taxes on investors, endless programs for losers and failures, more entitlements than anyone since FDR and a generally anti-business attitude being elected President of the last remaining semi-capitalist bastion would have a negative impact on the activities of thee various stock markets. It would be stupid to believe otherwise. Further, it would be stupid to believe that a well anticipated Sec State nomination would have anything at all to do with market movement. Now a surprise nomination of a Sec Treas of a generally accepted, by market makers, sane guy is surely going to alleviate some of the anxiety the Marxian's election has caused. Absolutely everything above is reasonable. Are you so out of touch that don't think, in the short term, that these announcements have any effect on the market? In the long term, policy matters. In the short term, perception rules. Tulips. --------------------
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Redstorm Prince of Bugs Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 years, 3 days |
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What I think is that you have a fundamental understanding of, but not limited to, what makes up Marxism. I understand you love rhetoric and your made up definitions, but the disingenuous nature of it has gotten ridiculous.
Should I quote you the definition of spurious again? The issue is whether or not Obama's election win is causing the downturn. Apparently there is a bit of dementia going on in the minds of a couple of posters here who have forgotten that the market was getting killed before he was elected. Do you really think that if McCain was elected that the markets would have turned around magically despite all the poor indicators? If so, I have to say that there is absolutely no hope for you.
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zouden Neuroscientist Registered: 11/12/07 Posts: 7,091 Loc: Australia Last seen: 17 years, 14 days |
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That's a good point. But if it ever got to that situation, the value of the currency would be pegged to the cost of mining the metal. That's not a fixed cost by any means. I still agree with your point, but I don't think it makes a gold standard worthwhile.
Sure. But what happens when new gold mines are discovered? That would devalue the currency. Also, there are times when the government needs to regulate inflation, in case it's getting too high. Would the standard control (interest rates) still occur? -------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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phi1618 old hand  Registered: 02/14/04 Posts: 4,102 Last seen: 16 years, 5 months |
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In the current environment, this is just nitpicking because precious metals are valuable, but this point isn't necessarily true - they won't necessarily maintain the value inherent in the effort it took to mine them, they will maintain only the value in whatever you can do with them. Gold is inherently valuable as jewelery and in electronics; it's quite possible that if the association of gold with money were to somehow dissolve, the existing stock of gold would be more than enough to cover the entire utilitarian demand for gold, and the value could fall far enough to make it no longer worth mining. As I said, this is just an academic point.
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Prisoner#1 Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!  Registered: 01/22/03 Posts: 193,665 Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutS |
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the Yapi Rai seems to have been a good basis for currency, I just hope you dont need change because you'll wanna bring more friends 
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Mr.Al Alphabet soup Registered: 05/27/07 Posts: 5,388 Loc: N.S.A. D.C. Last seen: 2 years, 9 months |
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Sure. But what happens when new gold mines are discovered? That would devalue the currency. Also, there are times when the government needs to regulate inflation, in case it's getting too high. Would the standard control (interest rates) still occur? The supply of gold is limited, so no matter how much is discovered will maintain a sufficient degree of value. Regarding inflation, there is not nearly as much of a problem with gold. The gold's value will represent the MARKET value. You also would do well to note that precious metal PREVENT government from robbing the PEOPLE through the devaluation of their money. The ratio of the amount of money in circulation to the goods and services in the economy set the value of the medium of exchange. All governments given the ability to write blank checks for themselves have historically devalued money until inflation crashes the economy. What you are not seeing is the direct correlation between PERSONAL FREEDOM, INDIVIDUAL SOVEREIGNTY, AND PERSONAL LIBERTY WITH SOUND MONETARY POLICY. Economics is pointless without sound monetary policy. Any screwing around with the economy is absolutely futile and will result in failure without the checks and balances that are needed for a real free market system. As I have asked before; what is the MORAL difference between some random jerk printing counterfeit money in his basement and the government doing exactly the same thing? The government has been printing money out of thin air for almost one hundred years. The American people have been paying for that with INFLATION! That is why the current system is immoral! The government has been robbing the people blind through this insidious mechanism! This is institutionalized UNCONSTITUTIONAL ROBBERY! Exactly what part of this are you having a hard time understanding? I don't mean to sound condescending. The federal reserve system is spiritually, literally, metaphorically, and morally bankrupt! There is no rational argument for having a fiat currency! Here is an interesting Monetary/Economic concept A Free-Market Monetary System http://mises.org/story/3204 A very intriguing article, and there is much more like it on this website. Edited by Mr.Al (11/22/08 08:54 PM)
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zouden Neuroscientist Registered: 11/12/07 Posts: 7,091 Loc: Australia Last seen: 17 years, 14 days |
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You talk about inflation as if it's a bad thing. It is not. Uncontrolled, rampant inflation is a bad thing, but a steady, low rate is a natural way to promote growth and investment.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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monkeywrench Why Not?  Registered: 09/16/08 Posts: 908 Last seen: 6 days, 8 hours |
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>Sure. But what happens when new gold mines are discovered? That would devalue the currency. Also, there are times when the government needs to regulate inflation, in case it's getting too high. Would the standard control (interest rates) still occur?
Da Beers.. -------------------- [quote]skalthren said: It's nice of you to imply that I've been brainwashed by the government, but the truth is that I'm simply intelligent enough to recognize the subtleties of these issues instead of going "durr hurr, weed should totally be legal!"[/quote]
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Mr.Al Alphabet soup Registered: 05/27/07 Posts: 5,388 Loc: N.S.A. D.C. Last seen: 2 years, 9 months |
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Inflation has nothing to do with economic growth. The boom part of the cycle is the time period in which the currency valuation has not yet adjusted to the newest influx of fiat currency. What you aren't seeing is that the growth you speak of is a form of borrowed debt on the future valuation of the currency in question. The boom creates the bust in the economy after the market adjusts to the amount of currency in circulation. This same mathematics is applicable to the American housing market and stock market.
The GAINS you speak of from inflation (which is just the creation of money out of thin air) is IMAGINARY. THE GAINS DO NOT EXIST AND DISAPPEAR AFTER THE MARKET ADJUSTS. Historically the only actual inflation with a bimetallic system is due to either the fixing of gold to a certain price, or to the dilution of value by debasement(An early form of Fiat). Where as under a paper-fiat system, its very creation devalues it Inflation is almost universally though caused by an increase in the supply of money and credit, in fact inflation IS an increase in the supply of money and credit. In a true free-market monetary system there would be no need for government regulation of inflation: this due to the simple fact there can be no significant inflation, and any such inflation naturally adjusts to the free-market.
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Mr.Al Alphabet soup Registered: 05/27/07 Posts: 5,388 Loc: N.S.A. D.C. Last seen: 2 years, 9 months |
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This is a very important read here, It is of direct relation to many of the problems currently present in the market
C H A P T E R 9 What Goes Up, Must Come Down ON THE EFFECT OF FLUCTUATIONS IN THE MONEY SUPPLY MONEY SUBSTITUTES WE SAW THAT money arose because people were willing to exchange a less marketable good for a more marketable one, even if it was not the good that they ultimately desired. Gradually, one commodity, often gold, emerged as the most marketable good of all. As participants in the economy came to recognize that fact, the commodity would take on the role of a universal medium of exchange: money. There are disadvantages to lugging around gold, however. One is that although it has a high value per unit of weight compared to many other commodities (one of the reasons that it often was chosen as money), its weight is not insignificant. Another downside to gold is that, while it is divisible, it is not easy to divide precisely, in the midst of a transaction. And gold coins clinking around in your pocket alert potential thieves to a target. Because of these disadvantages, the practice of using money certificates came into being. People could take their gold to a bank, which might be a purely private business, an 1 3 7 official government bank, or, as in the U.S. today, a mix of the two. The bank would hold their gold in a secure facility and issue the depositor a piece of paper. Such an instrument is called a bank notes, and it allows the depositor to reclaim the gold at any time by turning in the note to the bank. The paper is lighter than gold and therefore easier to carry. The bank could also issue, for instance, four quarter-ounce bank notes for a single one-ounce gold coin, easing the process of making change and allowing for finer-grained prices. Token coins minted with metals less valuable than gold (e.g., silver, nickel, and copper) can serve the same purpose, as well as possessing some residual value as a metal. So long as others are confident that the bank will honor its money certificates and coins, they will accept the notes and coins as substitutes for money itself. The use of money substitutes lowers transaction costs. The use of money substitutes does not change the amount of money in circulation. For every note issued, a corresponding amount of money proper (e.g., gold) has been stowed away in a vault. But banks may notice that they have a potential source of profit beyond whatever fees they charge for storing gold. Since not all of the claims for gold are redeemed at any one time, the bank may conclude that it can issue more gold-redeemable bank notes than the amount of gold it is holding. The bank can then lend those notes and earn interest on them. As long as every depositor doesn’t show up on the same day to claim his or her gold, the bank will remain viable. Such notes, issued in excess of the amount of money proper that a bank holds in reserve, are called fiduciary media. If a bank miscalculates its need for gold reserves, and is met with more demands for redemption than it can meet, it is 1 3 8 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E faced with a liquidity crisis. As soon as it is discovered that the bank has failed to meet any of its obligations, all depositors will attempt to withdraw their funds. There will be a run on the bank. Hollywood produced a famous example of a bank run when, in Mary Poppins, Michael demanded his tuppence back. Customers, hearing what they thought was a depositor being denied his funds, immediately began trying to withdraw their own money. The bank shut down to avoid collapse. There is spirited debate in the Austrian School as to whether the issuance of fiduciary media, in a pure market economy, is an acceptable practice. On the one side there are those who argue that market forces will generally constrain banks from issuing more fiduciary media than prudence permits. Those that are overzealous in note issuance will fail, and will serve as a notice to consumers to monitor the bank with which they deposit their money. Many of those economists contend that the issue of fiduciary media increases the ability of the economy to adjust to changes in the demand for money. They argue for a system of free banking. On the other side of the issue are those who argue that the issuance of fiduciary media is inherently fraudulent, as the bank is not backing up each claim to gold with actual gold. They contend that the practice will inevitably lead to banking crises. The economists on that side of the debate argue for a system of one-hundred-percent-reserve banking, where all notes are fully backed by gold. There is an extensive literature on each side of the issue, some of which I will mention in the bibliography, but I won’t attempt to resolve the dispute here. Both sides agree that what happens next is the cause of enormous troubles. Banks, whether owned privately or by the government, tend to be politically well connected. Historically, when a bank has gotten into trouble by issuing more fiduciary W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 3 9 media than the market would support, it has gone to the government for protection against the inevitable run. Insolvent banks, instead of being forced to liquidate, have been given government relief. They have been allowed to suspend payments or been given special loans from the Treasury or central bank. The special status given to banks has allowed them to operate in an almost risk-free environment. They may make loans far beyond what prudence would counsel. If their bets pay off, they profit. If they don’t, the government bails them out. That leads to what is called moral hazard, where banks are constantly tempted to take on more risk than if they were forced to suffer the consequences on their own. The law makes banks privileged players in the economy, with everyone else left holding the bag for their mistakes. Both the free bankers and the one-hundred-percent reservists agree that is unjust and inefficient. One of the chief means by which governments prop up insolvent banks is through the creation of a central bank with the power to act as a lender of last resort. (In the U.S., the central bank is called the Federal Reserve.) Since every time the banking system runs into trouble, the central bank is required to supply it with reserves, the strain on its resources is often tremendous. Eventually, it is likely that this bank will simply stop paying out commodity money at all, declaring that the circulating bank notes are the only real money. Money of that kind, as we mentioned, is called fiat money—it is money because the government has declared it so. Historically, the U.S. moved to a fiat money system in two steps. The first took place in 1933, when Franklin Roosevelt suspended domestic redemption of gold and confiscated all privately held gold. The U.S. completed the move away from gold as money in 1 4 0 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E 1971 when Richard Nixon stopped exchanging U.S. dollars for gold with foreign countries as well. INFLATION AND DEFLATION ONE OF THE historical effects of the move from commodity money to fiat money has been greater volatility in prices. That has increased the importance of a proper understanding of inflation and deflation. The standard definition of inflation is “too much money chasing too few goods,” and the corresponding one for deflation runs something like “too little money chasing too many goods.” These definitions are imprecise, because prices, given time, can adjust to any particular amount of money existing in the economy. There are practical limits on the amount of some good that must be available for it to be used as money. But goods not falling within those limits will not be chosen as money. Neither a metal so rare that it would need to be divided at the atomic level to make change, nor a commodity so plentiful that a shopping cart full of it is required to buy a pack of gum, will be suitable as money. For any good that might realistically be chosen as money, Murray Rothbard points out “there is no such thing as ‘too little’ or ‘too much’ money . . . whatever the social money stock, the benefits of money are always utilized to the maximum extent ” (Man, Economy, and State). Economist Paul Krugman frequently has cited what he believes is a simple, contrary example to that principle. He describes a baby-sitting co-op in the Washington, D.C., area. To ensure that each parent did his fair share of sitting, it used W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 4 1 coupons as a “currency,” each representing one hour of babysitting. It essentially created its own fiat baby-sitting money, which each participant could trade for baby-sitting from any of the other participants. Krugman contends that the currency was too scarce. The residents hoarded it, even when they might have wanted to hire a sitter, because they couldn’t get enough of it to guarantee they’d have some when they really needed a sitter. Because others were hoarding coupons, each person had difficulty acquiring more of them. So, Krugman concludes, all the residents had to do to get their baby-sitting economy going again was to circulate more coupons. The market had failed and the “government” (the sitters’ association) had to step in and prime the pump. His example actually illustrates the danger of price-fixing rather than the need for an active monetary policy. The problem the sitters’ co-op had was that it had tried to arbitrarily set the price of baby-sitting in terms of coupons. If it had let people needing sitters bid whatever they wanted to for an hour of sitting, the price in coupons would have dropped until the amount of currency was completely adequate to meet their needs.1 The desire to hold cash alters prices. It is true that not everyone in the economy can put more dollars under their 1 4 2 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E 1Krugman would answer by pointing to the “stickiness” of prices, especially wages, in the downward direction. We’ll discuss that problem later. He might also contend that it was the change in people’s desire for cash holdings that was the problem, although his article in Slate describing the co-op emphasizes the quantity of coupons. mattress at the same time. As there are only so many dollars in existence, everyone’s efforts to trade goods for a certain number of dollars cannot all succeed. They need someone on the other side of the exchange, trading dollars for goods. But even if all market participants are trying to trade goods for dollars, they can achieve their goal in the sense that the real value of each person’s cash holdings can rise at the same time. Trying to gain cash by selling goods, people drive the price of money up and that of all other goods down. There won’t be more dollars in the economy, but at the new, lower price level, each dollar can buy more. The opposite effect occurs if everyone desires smaller cash balances. They cannot all achieve their wish in terms of the number of dollars they hold, unless people simply burn their money in the backyard. That is because each person’s attempt to hold fewer dollars by purchasing other goods will inevitably result in the seller-of-the-goods’ holdings of dollars increasing. Economists say that the nominal value of the total cash holdings cannot be altered in such a fashion, where nominal means “measured in dollars.” (If your country uses the pound, peso, mark, or lira, just substitute that for the dollar.) But in what economists call real (purchasing power, not dollar amount) terms, everyone can reduce his or her cash balance. Attempting to shed cash by buying goods, people drive the price level up. Although the dollar amount of the net cash balances will not have changed, each dollar is able to buy less. The effects described in the previous two paragraphs do not make everyone, on the whole, wealthier or poorer. Although each person prefers his or her new level of cash holding to the previous one, it makes no sense to say “society” can increase or decrease its cash balance. If the net of everyone’s decision to hold more cash has driven the price W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 4 3 level down, that doesn’t mean that “society” has a larger cash balance. For each individual, his cash balance is larger in that it can now buy more goods. But if everyone attempts, at the same time, to use his higher real balances to purchase more goods, it would be a reversal of the general desire to hold larger cash balances, and it simply would drive the price level back up. Since, given time, prices can adjust to any particular amount of money in the economy, inflation and deflation are best viewed as rapid changes in the amount of money in the economy. Rapid increases in the money supply are called inflation, and rapid decreases are called deflation. It is the fact that it takes time for all prices to adjust to the new amount of money that makes inflation and deflation economically significant. If the government is in charge of creating money, its interest generally will run toward inflating the money supply. It can use the new money for increased spending, without having to go through the unpopular measure of raising taxes. That helps explain why prices have been more volatile since governments have replaced the gold standard with fiat money. Gold must be dug up from the ground and processed, and that takes time and effort. It is much easier to set a printing press running. The adoption of fiat money has made inflation simpler to achieve than it had been under the gold standard. Historically, deflation is less important than inflation, so we will concentrate our discussion on inflation. There have been few historical examples of governments deliberately deflating. (Britain’s return of the pound to the prewar parity with gold after the Napoleonic Wars and World War I are notable exceptions.) That is because, as pointed out above, inflation is a source of revenue for the government that is doing the inflating. 1 4 4 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E Since the government prints the money, it gets to spend it first. With more money in circulation, each dollar is worth less: Inflation acts as a stealth tax on the value of citizens’ cash holdings. Inflation also creates the illusion of prosperity, adding to its popularity. We will examine the relationship between inflation and the booms and busts of the modern economy further in Chapter 13. For now, I simply will point out that the relationship between economic growth and inflation frequently implied by the financial press is backward. Whenever aggregate measures of economic growth, such as gross domestic product (GDP), gross national product (GNP), and so on, rise at a relatively fast rate, we hear that the growing economy may “ignite inflation.” But a general price rise simply is a decrease in the value of money relative to other goods. Economic growth—in other words, more goods—cannot possibly cause inflation! The analysis of the process in the popular press reverses cause and effect. Inflation creates the illusion of rapid growth in the economy. Before it is realized that a general price rise is under way, some people feel richer, due to higher money profits and money wages, while other people really are richer, since they received the new money first, before a general rise in prices occurred. Those people will tend to spend more than they would have otherwise, making it seem that the economy is growing more rapidly. Some people mistake this illusory prosperity for real growth and recommend constant inflation as a means to continuing prosperity. They call their policy “low interest rates.” Since, when the Fed sets rates artificially low, it must increase the money supply to keep them low, it comes to the same thing. But inflation cannot really make society as a whole W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 4 5 wealthier. Every transaction that is income for person A is an expense for person B. If we try to use a rise in prices to universally boost incomes, we must, simply by definition, also universally (and to the same extent) boost expenses. It is as though my wife and I tried to get rich by paying each other an increasing amount of money every week. Similarly, deflation is not necessarily an evil. Even if nominal wages are dropping, standards of living can still rise, as long as prices for consumer goods are dropping even faster. The worker does not care about his nominal wage, but about what standard of living that wage will support. Let’s isolate the effect of inflation on the overall price level with the use of a thought experiment. We’ll imagine an isolated village—we’ll call it Walras. Walras has some important characteristics for our purposes—the stuff it uses as money has no other use, and it is, in every sense, perfect money: it is perfectly and effortlessly divisible, weightless, without volume, can’t be lost or stolen, and so on. (Such money is, of course, impossible, but we want to abstract away all but one aspect of inflation in our tale.) Walras is visited, late one night, by the legendary Ghost of Fisher. The phantom mysteriously doubles the amount of money held by every person in the village. What’s more, the Ghost of Fisher is able to communicate, to everyone, an exact and complete understanding of what has happened to the money supply. The result of the ghost’s activities is that all prices in Walras will immediately double. We have postulated that every person has complete knowledge of the new state of the money supply. Therefore, everyone will understand that, with the new doubled quantity of money and nothing new to spend it on, buyers will bid up prices to twice what they were. 1 4 6 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E But since our assumption also implies that everyone knows that everyone else knows that prices will double, there is no point in anyone bidding less than twice what he used to for something; the seller knows the price will double. As soon as the Ghost of Fisher transmits the knowledge of the inflation, the price of everything has, essentially, already doubled. There is more money in Walras, but the usefulness of each money unit has declined commensurately. That is the world in which the quantity theory of money fully describes the effect of inflation. This theory, originated by Jean Bodin, John Locke, and David Hume, relates changes in the quantity of money to changes in the price level. Economist Irving Fisher formulated the algebraic expression of the theory in 1911: MV = PT, or the quantity of money M times the rate at which it circulates, V, equals the price level P times the volume of transactions T. If we regard the equation as a rough description of the equilibrium position toward which the market process will guide prices after a change in the quantity of money, it is a useful tool. Much like the evenly rotating economy, it can give us a picture of the general direction of a central tendency in the economy. But it is highly misleading to regard the equation as a picture of the most significant effects of inflation in the real world. We have abstracted out the important elements of the picture, from the point of view of human action. Humans are uninterested in a phenomenon that will leave their state of satisfaction unchanged, such as the instantaneous doubling of cash holdings and all prices. Such a change could occur every night, and no one in Walras would give a hoot. Human creativity in the face of the uncertain future means that the actors in our economy, who in reality do not all learn about all changes instantly, will strive to understand first the W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 4 7 effects of economic changes. Those who comprehend early the nature of change will attempt to buy and sell before the new knowledge becomes widespread. Rather than complain that they are taking advantage of others, it seems more useful to note that it is only the entrepreneurial search for profit that drives prices toward equilibrium. There simply is no other way to discover equilibrium prices than by allowing people to employ their wits in trying to figure them out. Allowing them to profit from more accurate estimates and lose on less accurate ones is the only way to align their motivation with the need for price discovery. The knowledge of the new state of monetary affairs will not be instantly in everyone’s head. Nor will the new money be distributed proportionately into everyone’s pocket. The new money cannot possibly hit all areas of the economy at the same time. Who it does go to first is determined, in a fiat money economy, by government policy. Curiously enough, quite often the answer seems to be large and politically wellconnected banks. The definitions of inflation and deflation we are using here are Austrian, not mainstream, definitions. When most economists talk about inflation, they are referring to an increase in the price level (the P of the Fisher equation), and by deflation, they mean a decrease in the price level. However, the Austrian definitions have two major advantages over those of the mainstream. First, the notion of measuring the price level is itself problematic, as we will see in the next section. Even if we assume away that difficulty, a second problem exists: The mainstream definitions mask the most significant economic phenomena involved, pointing, instead, to a symptom of those phenomena. The Fischer equation shows roughly where the economy is headed, once all of the effects 1 4 8 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E of the inflation or deflation have worked themselves out. It is the working out that is the more interesting topic. As we have seen above, the creation of new money in an economy inevitably alters economic relations among people, in addition to altering the relationship between goods and money. Those who get the new money first are aided; those who get it last, hurt. These are called Cantillon effects, named after the great Irish-French economist Richard Cantillon. The first recipients of the newly created money are in a position to spend it before the inflation raises prices throughout the entire economy. They now have more cash, but, unlike the people in Walras, they have it before everyone else, and before the effect of the new money is fully felt throughout the economy. Unlike the people of our mythical village, the new amount of money they possess will buy them more goods than the previous amount they had. The process by which new money flows into the economy is not like the neutral money image of a bathtub filling evenly from all sides. Rather, it is like the discharging of a liquid into a river. The chaotic flow of the turbulent market process carries the new liquid along paths that are inherently unpredictable, even by those creating the money. Human action is creative, and we cannot even say ourselves what course of action we might take if we awake tomorrow to a new world. CAN WE MEASURE THE PRICE LEVEL? THE CONCEPT OF stable money has led to a desire for price indices that can measure the value of money. There are two common fallacies at the root of the desire for stable W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 4 9 money. One is that money is a “measure of value,” and the other is that it is a “store of value.” Value is subjective and cannot be measured. If two parties exchange $10 for a bag of onions, it does not mean that we have “measured” the value of onions to be $10. It means that the person who bought the onions valued them more than $10, while the person who sold the onions valued them less than the $10. No measurement is involved. It does not make sense to assign to the onions and dollars “equal” values. To whom are the values equal? Valuation means preferring one thing to another, never indifference between them. Prices are not measurements but historical facts, indicating that at such-and-such a place and time, two parties exchanged one bag of onions for $10. Nor is money a “store of value.” The phrase implies that money is some sort of container, into which value can be poured. When we have inflation, it seems that some of the value has “leaked out” of money, while in a deflation, value has somehow “seeped in” to money. What people who use that phrase are talking about can be indicated much more clearly: people value money, and they can store it. (The fact that it can be stored is one of the reasons a good emerges as money.) While they store it, its value may rise or fall. There is nothing special about money in that respect: you can store a painting or a book, and its value might also rise or fall while it is being stored. Even if we ignore the fact that money is not a measure of value, the idea of a price index encounters a second difficulty. Economist Richard Timberlake, in defense of price indices in an article “Austrian ‘Inflation,’ Austrian Money,” compares them to thermometers. True, his line of reasoning goes, they are not perfectly accurate—but neither are thermometers, yet we still use them. 1 5 0 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E But let us see whether the consumer price index (CPI) and other measures like it are really analogous to a thermometer. A thermometer is a measuring device that we can place in an environment where an independent phenomenon (in the case of a thermometer, molecular motion) is taking place. The measuring device responds to that phenomenon in a predictable manner, most often by some sort of visible display. The display is interpreted as having some correspondence with the quantity we want to measure. For example, the height of mercury in a thermometer corresponds to the temperature in the area where it is placed. The position of the needle on an ammeter corresponds to the current passing through the wires to which it is connected. When it comes to price levels, what are we measuring? And what is the measuring device? Our readings are all in terms of prices, in other words, the exchange rate of various goods for money. For the thermometer analogy to hold we must take money itself as the measuring device. But a price index is not measuring the monetary temperature of a good—or indeed, all goods—at a single point in time. It is an attempt to track the readings of our thermometer over time, to see if the readings are stable. A price index tries to track changes in the money price of the “same” basket of goods. Therefore, since money is our thermometer, a price index is an attempt to gauge the stability of our measuring device. Now we can construct a more accurate thermometer analogy. We have a device, money, which we suppose is measuring the value of goods. That device gives us various readings— gold traded for $275 today, bread is $1.19 a loaf, and so on. What we are interested in is finding out whether, over time, that thermometer is drifting; is it giving us generally W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 5 1 higher or lower readings for all goods on average, rather than just for some particular good? If we had some “measure” of value besides money prices, our venture would be much easier. However, we don’t. So those advocating price indices are recommending that we check for drift in our thermometer by wandering from place to place, checking the temperature from time to time—with the very thermometer whose accuracy we are testing! We can see that we have arrived at a severe problem. There is no way to determine which changes in measured temperature are real, and which are caused by drift in our thermometer. Let’s look at one example that illustrates the problem. We’ll say that we are trying to determine whether the cost of computer programming has risen in the last thirty years. The services of today’s programmers, armed with significant advances in software engineering and capitalized with better tools, are just not the same good as those of the programmers of thirty years ago. (That is no comment on the people themselves— any particular person programming today should be vastly more productive than he was thirty years ago.) We can guess that an hour of programming today should be more valuable than an hour of programming was thirty years ago. In order to determine if the cost of programming has risen, we will have to establish some ratio between the goods—for example, one hour of 1972 programming is equivalent to fifteen minutes of 2002 programming—and compare the cost after applying this ratio. However, there is no way to measure the change in valuation other than by comparing what employers are willing to pay for programmers now with what they paid in 1972. To try and gauge the value of programmers’ labor by lines of code or something of the sort is to fall back into the fallacious labor 1 5 2 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E theory of value. The only possible thermometer for measuring the change in valuation—money—is precisely the device whose accuracy we wish to check. The attempt to measure the price level is not useless, as long as it is taken as a rough approximation of changes in the value of money. To return to the thermometer: If, in our peripatetic attempts to check its accuracy, we read 80 degrees, walk five feet, then read 40 degrees, we might suspect that something is up with the thermometer. Similarly, when the Consumer Price Index (CPI) shows 20-percent inflation, money is probably losing value. Such figures may be useful for economic history or for planning a year’s business expenses. However, if CPI figures show that inflation has “ticked up” from 2.5 percent to 2.6 percent, we are justified in doubting that this .1-percent increase is really indicating anything about the value of money. As Mises said in Human Action: The pretentious solemnity which statisticians and statistical bureaus display in computing indexes of purchasing power and cost of living is out of place. These index numbers are at best rather crude and inaccurate illustrations of changes which have occurred. In periods of slow alterations in the relation between the supply of and the demand for money they do not convey any information at all. In periods of inflation and consequently of sharp price changes they provide a rough image of events which every individual experiences in his daily life. A judicious housewife knows much more about price changes as far as they affect her own household than the statistical averages can tell. She has little use for computations disregarding changes both in quality and in the amount of goods which she is W H A T G O E S U P , M U S T C O M E D O W N 1 5 3 able or permitted to buy at the prices entering into the computation. If she “measures” the changes for her personal appreciation by taking the prices of only two or three commodities as a yardstick, she is no less “scientific” and no more arbitrary than the sophisticated mathematicians in choosing their methods for the manipulation of the data of the market. 1 5 4 E C O N O M I C S F O R R E A L P E O P L E PART III INTERFERENCE WITH THE MARKET Will post Interference with the market here if enough interest is shown. The link to the book can be found here http://mises.org/books/econforre An excellent read Edited by Mr.Al (11/22/08 11:06 PM)
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zouden Neuroscientist Registered: 11/12/07 Posts: 7,091 Loc: Australia Last seen: 17 years, 14 days |
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You're neglecting the fact that under a gold standard, you can still have an increase in the supply of money and credit. When the country does well and its people prosper, they have more wealth. If everyone has more wealth, the price of goods will rise. This is inevitable, gold standard or not. You can't stop inflation in a growing economy, you can only try and nudge it up or down. The best method (that we know of) for doing that is by adjusting interest rates. This is fairly basic macroeconomic theory, and, as I've already said, this applies whether you have a gold standard or not. I think the gold standard doesn't make much sense any more, because it's attempting to link wealth with the possession of gold. This is a very old-fashioned point of view. You can be wealthy without owning any money, so it just stands to reason that you can own money without having to own gold. -------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Trepiodos Disgustipated Registered: 07/01/06 Posts: 469 Loc: Los Angeles Coun Last seen: 17 years, 9 days |
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The money supply is constrained by physical limitations on a gold standard. With a fiat currency, there is no limitation. This is an important difference. The supply of gold is not subject to political whim, but physical reality. How credit is determined is another matter.
Only if the supply decreased relative to demand of the individual goods.
Inflation is an increase in the money supply. Price inflation (what you seem to be referring to) is a reflection of the decrease in the value of a currency in relation to goods and services. This does not mean that a society or economy has any more wealth, it only means that the currency is worth less vis-a-vis goods and services.
No, it's attempting to link currency to something TANGIBLE, in order to prevent the manipulation of the money supply for the gain of those who have the means to do it (politicians and central banks) AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERYONE ELSE.
This is an argument without merit. The age of a point of view has nothing to do with it's validity. Perhaps you think that murder should be legal because laws against it are rooted in antiquity?
This is correct. Money is a medium of exchange, it's value is related to how many people are willing to use it and the quantity in circulation. --------------------
And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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Mr.Al Alphabet soup Registered: 05/27/07 Posts: 5,388 Loc: N.S.A. D.C. Last seen: 2 years, 9 months |
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I can see that you are educated... What you might not be conscious of is that many well educated people are also the most indoctrinated people.
The information you have learned in studying "macroeconomics" is very obviously derived from keynesian economics. That is usually the only form of economics taught in universities today. That is why you resist these new ideas (they are new to you) so much. I urge you to visit mises.org for a thorough grounding in austrian economics. I feel like I am beating the proverbial dead horse... Having a gold standard PREVENTS the government from printing money that is backed by nothing (and hence worthless). That prevents the devaluation of money from occurring. I am sure you can see how that saves the middle class. Now, you have spoken about a correlation of wealth and inflation... What you are not looking at is that there would be no inflation if the money supply stayed stable. Do you not know the dollar has lost 97% of it's buying power since 1913?? Look at the amount of dollars in circulation in 1913 versus today. That is the real cause of inflation- printing money out of thin air. If the money supply remained stable and the economy experienced an increase of goods and services produced the buying power of the money in circulation would increase. This is just mathematics and common sense friend! Even a neuroscientist can understand this logic. If there are less dollars chasing the same amounts of G.D.P the dollars in question have more buying power. If there are more dollars chasing the same amount of G.D.P. of course the dollars have less buying power. If you put your keynesian economics on the shelf momentarily you will find this makes sense and the keynesian model to be pure bullshit.
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