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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292339 -

YouTube videos do not constitute evidence :crankey:

It's my policy not to watch youtube videos posted for evidence, but I checked out a couple minutes of the first one.


I stand corrected, apparently there are doctors who have seen this phenomenon

Oklahoma State link

So far, that's the only credible link I've been able to turn up, and it's pretty weak on substantiating its info. It seems like this Dr. Randy Wymore of Oklahoma State U is the only doctor in the nation who has actually looked at these fibers in any detail.

More than one credible person having looked at them would make me less skeptical, but I have to admit that it moves it towards the "possible" category.



What I don't get is why morgellon people love to put up hearsay, youtube videos, and "teh intranets told me so" to justify their claims. If they want people to take them seriously, why don't they link to actual credible sources? I've seen multiple morgellon discussions and never have seen anyone put up links to any credible informaiton beyond the fact that the CDC is planning on investigating it due to increased public inquiry.

Maybe if they didn't present themselves like loony conspiracists, they'd get taken more seriously.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292385 -

I'm not posting anything as evidence?:confused:

As i said earlier i have an 'idk' stance on this.  I'm just saying when a person that has gone to college for 10 years and knows more about the human body than me or you, says that this is real it has to make me wonder....


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292397 -

Youtube videos as evidence?

Anyone can put anything on youtube.  Whether its a good source or not, and to dismiss them ALL and labeling them as "youtube videos" is not intelligent behavior when looking at this polemic.

Saying youtubes aren't legitimate resources is prob right for MOST of the stuff.

So is this not a credible source for Oxycodone information?
Its a youtube video..


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (11/22/08 05:50 PM)

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292439 -

Yes, I in particular am always so bad in finding supporting evidence from offsite resources to bolster my claims.  I guess you are right I haven't proved anything in this thread, but to say compelling evidence has not been put forth is... umm... on par for you.

Basically, it is easy to see that a lot of patients who suffer from Morgellons are indeed delusional.  If they were not and there was some infection going on, putting a cast over their skin would not cause the skin to heal, which it does.

Like I said, there might be secondary causes to the disease, some non delusional aspect of the disorder causing the manifestation IN SOME CASES.  As for the fibers, the CNN report is a little more convincing than nanobot woman, but I think identifying fibers is not nearly as difficult as they are making it out to be.  Are they hair?  Were they scratched in from rubbing?  Is it just discolored skin?  Forensic labs routinely analyze fibers and can tell you an awful lot about them.  Meanwhile, Morgellons doc "has no clue" what the fibers are.

All this made me very curious who the doctors in the CNN video actually are.  I found this on one nurse
Quote:
Ginger Savely: She costs $500.00 a visit. Her specialty is Lyme, and when she started getting so many patients with Morgellons symptoms that tested positive for LD, she worked with them also and noticed they often got better when treated with LD drugs.


So they test positive for Lyme disease, respond to lyme disease medication, and yet they have Morgellons.  You know what they say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be Morgellons.

Randy Wymore, who appears to be the lead doctor in the case seems like a reasonable and capable science minded guy.  Honestly nothing I found on him makes his process suspicious to me - well, apparently he charges a lot of money and does not take insurance, but that does not mean he is not trying his hardest to explain what is going on.  I think all the people in the video are empathetic to their patients, so he seems like a good guy to me.  I want these people to be helped, whatever that means.  But here is the thing.  In 2005 he was going to search for bacteria first... well let me use his words: %u201CWe are keeping every possible cause open for examination. It could be viral, parasitic, fungal, bacterial, or environmental contamination. We just do not know. There is not enough evidence,%u201D Wymore says.  For three years he has been looking for stuff that should be relatively easy to find underand found nothing.  Environmental contamination might be hard to track down unlike bacteria, viruses, or bugs, but it does not explain the randomness of the disorder (globally speaking with all states and many countries being represented- and we have already established how hysteria's and dementia's can spread through local populations, especially families.)

I expected to find worse on this guy because he still doesn't know what the fibers are (a good indication that they vary from patient to patient perhaps?)  He says he found plant DNA in the patients, which takes some pretty heavy lifting in the lab... you would think identifying fiber would be a walk in the park compared to that.

Anyway, in the end even Randy Wymore says that some people who suffer from Morgellons do suffer from a delusion of parasites, he just doesn't know if it is 1% or 90% of them (his words not mine).  Although he methods are not crazy and I will not call him a quack, I think 3 years looking for a cause in this day and age does not bode well for his aptitude in his field.  His main argument I took away from a 2007 paper he wrote is that calling people delusional cannot help them, you can't beat the disorder by just spouting off stuff like I am on the internet.  And he is right.  And he is really really looking into it so he can help them.  And yet he is really really not finding anything contagious spreading the disease.

The other thing is that this doctor's reputation will precede him when dealing with all these patients because how recognized he is in researching the disorder.  I do not know his real motives, but if he does want to help these people, he does have to take them very seriously, and be careful what he says at all times.  A positive attitude can be important for patient recovery, which must be especially true if the disorder is a manifestation of the mind.

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292445 -

Entropymancer said:
Maybe if they didn't present themselves like loony conspiracists, they'd get taken more seriously.


That is the most ignorant statement i have seen in a long time, information doesn't present its self as loony.  It is what it is!

When you don't look at both sides of the polemic in a stance of non-bias.  How con you expect your thoughts to be logical or truthful?


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (11/22/08 05:56 PM)

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292541 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
information doesn't present its self as loony. 


http://www.timecube.com/

This is funniest post I've made all week.

EDIT: Wow I haven't been to that site in a while.  It too bad he has added so much rambling to the top of the page.  I mean the top is crazy to, but you might miss the good parts when he tells you what the time cube is.

Edited by fireduck (11/22/08 06:15 PM)

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: fireduck]
    #9292569 -

I'm missing any (if there is any) information there, i read something about race.  Race is not information, it is an evolutionary adaptation to changing environments.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292571 -

On the internet, people make all kinds of bullshit outrageous claims all the time. We have a pretty simple protocol for these situations (I'm not saying this thread conforms to this pattern, since you aren't actively advocating for the existence of morgellons, but there have been other threads here that do)

Person #1 makes a dubious claim, let's say for example that morgellons are a new epidemic.

Person #2 calls bullshit on that claim, demanding evidence from cedible sources.

Person #1 continues to make statements without evidence or credible sources, throws up some youtube videos, and tells person #1 to prove that morgellons don't exist

Person #2 points out that person #1 has now demonstrated some basic misunderstandings. It's basically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist unless it's literally a physical impossibility, so it makes no sense to try to put the burden of proof on the skeptic. Furthermore, the burden of proof traditionally lies on the one making the assertion.

Person #1 continues to throw up more youtube videos and links to conspiracist sites.

Person #2 comes away from the exchange with the clear position that the assertion was likely incorrect, and it's prudent to consider it incorrect until credible evidence otherwise is presented.

=====

In that example. person #1 has presented themself as a loony conspiracist. The "information" they provided cannot be weighed on its own merits, because it hasn't any.

You say "information doesn't present itself as loony, it is what it is". But Information is only as good as its source. If its source is a loony conspiracist, then the information must be considered as the ramblings of a loony conspiracist.

If, rather than posting non-credible links and youtube videos, they had posted info from credible sources, then the discussion could have progressed in a reasonable manner.

Person #2 isn't looking at it from a non-biased position and collecting evidence of their own, because to do that for every loony asserteion ever made on the intrawebs would be rediculous. You'd waste lifetimes. Instead f trying to look at both sides in a non-biased way, it's much more prudent to adopt a skeptic approach, sitting on the side of the status quo until credible evidence is presented against it.

And as for my dismissal of Youtube videos, I stand behind it. Youtube videos are the shittiest possible way to present an argument. It takes at least 10 times as long to watch a youtube video as it does to read the same information. Youtube videos have seriously degraded the intellectual integrity of debate on forums (except in sane places like the Political Discussion forum where they're universally reviled, and the people who try to use them in argument are harassed as Coaster-ites)


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: fireduck]
    #9292578 -

fireduck said:
Cognitive_Shift said:
information doesn't present its self as loony. 


http://www.timecube.com/


:rofl::rofl2::rofl:

I remember timecube from years and years ago. Hilarious (and a great example of information that presents itself as loony).

Another great example is http://truthism.com/


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292583 -

The dude is crazy, but I guess the closest thing to the information you get on the site is like...

Quote:
Recognition and application of this Cubic
simultaneous 4 day rotation of Earth,
will change all math, science and societies
from the beginning of human existence.
You have to be evil to ignore this math.

1-Midday to midday is a 24 hour rotation.
2-Sundown to sundown is a 24 hour rotation.
3-Midnight to midnight is a 24 hour rotation.
4-Sunup to sunup is a 24 hour rotation.

4 Earth corners rotate 4 Time corners -
for 4 simultaneous day rotation of Earth -
equating the principle of a 4 pole motor.
Academic bastards will deny the obvious.
Americans are EVIL for ignoring Cubicism.




His theory is that there are 96 hours in a day.  Like I said in my edit, he has buried it under more of his craziness.  I think it is fair to say this is some pretty loony information.

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: fireduck]
    #9292595 -

Damn Entropy, its like these people have not figured out what a hyperlink is.

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292599 -

Entropymancer said:
Person #1 continues to throw up more youtube videos and links to conspiracist sites.


CNN.com is a conspiracist site?

Huh i will have to look into that one:confused:

Another common misconception that you have is ALL conspiracy is wrong.  This is a hypothesis you have, not a fact.

A person that hears/sees information, and then chooses a side with out properly looking at the evidence from both sides of the polemic, well thats just not intelligent problem solving:shrug:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292611 -

No, that's intelligent forum browsing. Or do you think I should try to collect balanced information for and against Timecube and Truthism, and weigh them on their merits from a non-biased viewpoint.

(And I never said CNN was a conspiracist site, re-read my post)


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292618 -

Entropymancer said:
Or do you think I should try to collect balanced information for and against Timecube and Truthism, and weigh them on their merits from a non-biased viewpoint.



Yes, i did that.  And from what i see there is no logical information to support anything that site mentions.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292622 -

Oh, and my hypothesis isn't that all conspiracies are wrong. I just used the word with a different intended meaning. By conspiracist, I meant someone who speculates wildly without decent evidence or credible sources. I probably could have chosen a better word.

Oh, and what fireduck said is true, I didn't realize he'd been trying to identify the fibers for 3 years. If he still hasn't identified them, he needs to have his tenure revoked.


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292637 -

Well no one has been able to identify the fibers.  The CNN video i watched, had a biologist compare the fiber to all known biological and synthetic fibers over over 100,000  in the FBI data base.  Not a match to anything.  Its totally unique.

And then doctors think that people are scratching the sores into them and stuffing them with unique fibers of which no one has ever seen before...EVER??



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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (11/22/08 06:30 PM)

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292663 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Entropymancer said:
Or do you think I should try to collect balanced information for and against Timecube and Truthism, and weigh them on their merits from a non-biased viewpoint.



Yes, i did that.  And from what i see there is no logical information to support anything that site mentions.


Just as no logical information is generally presented to substantiate morgellons or chemtrails


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9292674 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Well no one has been able to identify the fibers.  The CNN video i watched, had a biologist compare the fiber to all known biological and synthetic fibers over over 100,000  in the FBI data base.  Not a match to anything.  Its totally unique.

And then doctors think that people are scratching the sores into them and stuffing them with unique fibers of which no one has ever seen before...EVER??


It's not that hard to characterize a fiber. It doesn't matter whether it's something that's ever been seen before or not, if it's made of atoms, he should have a damn good diea what it is by now


--------------------
Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: fireduck]
    #9292677 -

Entropymancer said:
it's much more prudent to adopt a skeptic approach, sitting on the side of the status quo


NOOOOO.  Skeptics don't sit on the side of the status quo!!!

I also have issue with discounting a video simply because it is on YouTube.  Check the source like you should with anything else and make a judgment call.

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Re: Morgellons.....I believe them! [Re: Entropymancer]
    #9292683 -

Not the cause of what ever is happening to the people.  I personally don't think the gov't is putting these things in theoretical 'chemtrails' in fact i have no idea about the origin of these things.  Im saying you cannot refute physical evidence and specimens taken from patients.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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