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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: peterluber]
    #9087553 -

peterluber said:
If you care about your future, vote the lesser of two evils.


would that be the devil or his bastard son?

I certainly will not waste my vote by giving it to corporate shills

Quote:
By your logic, if you disagree with whichever 3rd party candidate you are supporting on one issue, you should write in somebody who you completely agree with. 



'best fits' is the operative word, hell, McCain certainly comes closer than the Marxist


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: zouden]
    #9087556 -

The voting system does not enforce any two party rule. It's open to a variety of parties. It's largely media that reinforces the idea of a two party system.

I walked into a 7/11 the other day and saw McCain and Obama coffee cups. It's ridiculous the way we are being manipulated to believe that these are the only viable choices. Don't limit yourself by what's popular, because going with the crowd will definitely not create any more change than voting third party would.


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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9087592 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
In order for a democracy to work we have to assume that we are all the similar.


in order for democracy to work te people have to be
represented, now if the people were named Anheiser Bush and
Sony Corporation, then yes, we'd be adequately represented


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #9087669 -

AlteredAgain said:
The voting system does not enforce any two party rule. It's open to a variety of parties. It's largely media that reinforces the idea of a two party system.


Read about Duverger's law.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #9087793 -

AlteredAgain said:
The voting system does not enforce any two party rule.



the electoral college does. whens the last time a 3rd part was
voted for by the electoral college, the states dictate how they
vote, it can be for the states selection or for the national
popular vote.


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: Srirachi]
    #9088190 -

Leary_Ban said:
But I have a serious question for the Obama supporters.  Let's say he wins, and nothing changes.

He will probably get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, but let's say that taxes stay pretty much the same, healthcare stays pretty much the same, education stays pretty much the same.

What will your response to all that be?  Would you vote 3rd party next election, or Republican, or not at all?  Will you hold Obama accountable or blame Congress?

I'm curious, because I believe Obama will win and be a typical politician with a great line of bullshit.


FEW people out there actually think Obama is going to revolutionize the country. BUT

Obama has vowed to invest the money needed to secure our energy independence through renewable energy. In 10 years.
Old man Mccain's answer to the problem is "Drill." Drill more, consume more. We're America, afterall.
Of all the issues, this is the one that sways me more than any others.
The money we spend importing oil from other countries, so we precious Americans can continue using 25% of the world's energy without inconveniencing ourselves, is enough to completely eliminate our national debt.
Mccain is, without question, stuck in to old days. I WILL NOT vote for someone who is too stubborn to see this.

What it comes down to is your overall priority: yourself, or others.
While I understand the more selfish half of the population is reluctant to vote for someone who will allow tax dollars to go towards helping people who are less fortunate, (or indeed, just more lazy)...I, and others who support Obama, do not value personal finances above all else in the world. We're okay giving a few extra dollars to those programs serving those in need. Programs such as health care and education. 

Unfortunately, Obama is also an intellectual, which does not help his cause. He actually thinks about what he's saying and answers questions with logic and a legitimate thought process.
Mccain appeals to the  "America, FUCK YEAH!" folks. Those who feel that our citizens have a god given right to be better than everyone else.
They love that Mccain was locked and tortured in a POW prison for 5 years... and that somehow proves his ability to run a country?
Guess what people, Americans are just humans, like everyone else on this planet.
No politician is going to make all of us happy, ever. But you people are so caught up in "the world is over no matter what" that you forget to consider the few basic needs of our times.

To answer your question:
Obama will change his mind and admit he was wrong when the time comes.
Mccain is so "strong" and such a "fighter" that he will not.

and that is his biggest downfall.


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...I got nothin..

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: bongoboy2000]
    #9088243 -

I dont like the electoral college system because it treats voters as masses of people instead of individuals.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9088310 -

no, it's the states that dictate the electoral college, they
dont have to vote the way the population did


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9088326 -

I know, the states dictate.  And a state contains a population of the PUBLIC.  So in essence the ellectoral college uses public opinion instead of individual opinion. I have something in my signature to say why i dont like it when governments treat us as the 'public' instead of individual citizens.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9088401 -

states can dictate that they vote for the national popularity
contest as opposed to the states over riding what the majority
of the people of the state want


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: zouden]
    #9088415 -

zouden said:
It's not about media popularity - it's about recognising that America's voting system enforces a two-party rule. Until the system is changed, you're stuck with two parties. And voting for a third party does not change the system.


the ignorance here is astounding.  Justify it however you please.

I guarantee you that the candidate that I choose to vote for will not win.  But if people start voting who they really want as president now, then maybe within the next 20 years, we can actually see a real change.  Sure, this year, only 4% of votes may go to all third party candidates combined.  But what if it plants a seed, and next election, they get 9%.  The following year, it raises even higher, since people do see there is a possibility of not having another republicrat in office.  so it goes up to 16%.  Im sure by now, you are catching on to where I am going.

All you people that continue to vote for only one of the two candidate that will win, just to keep the other out of office, are the ones to blame for keeping us stuck in this two party system.  The government is run by the people, so the people are the only ones here that can make change.

I know I cannot say anything here to stop your ignorance, as it has been ingrained in your mind somehow.  Hopefully with the coming of age of many new voters (too bad most here are quite young, and won't be out of the voting system anytime soon) things might be different, and we can get some independents into all branches of govt.

Also, anyone that really thinks its goign to be any different whichever party is in office, your just fooling yourself.  Sure, their tax plans are different, but they don't single handedly sign into law or implement these systems.  By the time congress gets done with it, it may not be similar whatsoever to the original bill.  In 4 or 8 years, after Obama has finished his term(s), lets go back and look at the things he said he was going to do, as a checklist, and see how many of these he actually got done.  And on the very slight, pretty much non existant now, being so close to election, and the polls saying what they do, that McCain wins, lets do the same, I guarantee you that not one thing they have said they will do, will be done in the way they are saying they will do it.

Help us all, we are just continuously sticking ourselves in the same situations over and over again.  What is happening with the economy and markets now happened the same way in the 70's.  And if we keep patching it up by just throwing (printing and borrowing) more money at it, its inevitable that its going to happen again, in due time.

peace

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: supra]
    #9088435 -



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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #9088448 -

b0red5tiff said:



haha, funny stuff, photoshop is great.

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: supra]
    #9088452 -

Supporting a 3rd party candidate is great, but you have to realize that either Obama or McCain will win. If you really don't care which of them wins, then go ahead and vote 3rd party. But if the polls show (like they always do) that your 3rd party candidate doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell, and you are smart enough to realize that there will be a few important differences between an Obama and a McCain presidency, then vote for one of them.

The general populace is not voting for their lesser of two evils. They are mostly ignorant enough to actually support their major party candidate. If you took all of the 3rd party votes, and all of the "lesser of two evil" votes, and put them towards a 3rd party candidate, they still wouldn't win!

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: peterluber]
    #9088470 -

i don't think that's photoshopped.


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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: peterluber]
    #9088495 -

peterluber said:
If you took all of the 3rd party votes, and all of the "lesser of two evil" votes, and put them towards a 3rd party candidate, they still wouldn't win!


nope, they sure wouldnt but that's how the change begins and
when people stop being blinded to the media drawing attention
away from a 2 party system and start showing that there's
more than 2, more people may vote 3rd party, it's small steps
but that's how we learn to walk


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: peterluber]
    #9088501 -

peterluber said:
Supporting a 3rd party candidate is great, but you have to realize that either Obama or McCain will win. If you really don't care which of them wins, then go ahead and vote 3rd party. But if the polls show (like they always do) that your 3rd party candidate doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell, and you are smart enough to realize that there will be a few important differences between an Obama and a McCain presidency, then vote for one of them.

The general populace is not voting for their lesser of two evils. They are mostly ignorant enough to actually support their major party candidate. If you took all of the 3rd party votes, and all of the "lesser of two evil" votes, and put them towards a 3rd party candidate, they still wouldn't win!


I have to disagree.  If you took all the third party votes, all the people that don't vote third party based off of the fact that they will not win, at least this time, and add in all the people that don't vote, because they are frustrated with either the two puppets put up for president, or just frustrated with the system in general, you would find that there is more support for the third parties (when all combined of course).

If you broke it down to:

Republican
Democrat
Green
Consitutionalist
Libertarian
Reform
Peace
Independent
Whatever else there is

you would find that the third parties actually do have more support.  Not only that, most peoples ideals do not align with either major party, but a mix of all parties.  Choosing the candidate that is the closest to your set of political ideals is truly the only way to not waste your vote.

peace

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: supra]
    #9088520 -

supra said:
zouden said:
It's not about media popularity - it's about recognising that America's voting system enforces a two-party rule. Until the system is changed, you're stuck with two parties. And voting for a third party does not change the system.


the ignorance here is astounding.  Justify it however you please.

I guarantee you that the candidate that I choose to vote for will not win.  But if people start voting who they really want as president now, then maybe within the next 20 years, we can actually see a real change.  Sure, this year, only 4% of votes may go to all third party candidates combined.  But what if it plants a seed, and next election, they get 9%.  The following year, it raises even higher, since people do see there is a possibility of not having another republicrat in office.  so it goes up to 16%.  Im sure by now, you are catching on to where I am going.


Do you have any evidence that this could happen, or are you just hoping? You think that people will see that 4% of the vote went to third parties, and this will convince more people to vote third party? There's just as much chance of those 4% seeing that their vote did nothing, and switch back to the main parties.

The idea of voting for a third party isn't a new one. The seed would have been planted years ago. But it isn't growing.

Supra said:
you would find that there is more support for the third parties (when all combined of course).


Then the situation is even worse! If the third-party support is split, none of them will get anywhere. It's like the left-wing vote in Canada!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: zouden]
    #9088549 -

Of course I have no evidence zouden, as nobody can tell exactly what will happen in the future.  Your prediction is just as accurate as mine, but hoping for the best hasn't hurt me yet.  I also agree with you that the idea is not a new one, but as people get more and more fed up with it, things could change, for better, or for worse.

Also, yes, 'third' party does not signify a single party, but any that are not republican or democrat.  If votes are split between them all, and everyone voted for who they want, then the one with the majority of electoral college votes would win, regardless of party affiliation.

peace

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Re: I'm supporting McCain, ok? [Re: zouden]
    #9088887 -

zouden said:
The idea of voting for a third party isn't a new one. The seed would have been planted years ago. But it isn't growing.



media lock out on the small candidates, you have to search
for the information most of the time, the internet has
helped, in the last presidential election everyone said nader
stole votes from gore, they were determined that it wasnt
going to happen again so fewer people voted for 3rd parties


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