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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8968680 -

"I could just as easily make a case for the findings of science being the only evidence of Ultimate Reality."

No you can't. Ultimate Reality precedes the existence of the universe. That is exactly the point, which you fail to get every time. Physics developed after the Primal Event of the Big Bang. Metaphysics is one of the six branches of philosophy which speculates, "guesses" as you say, as to THAT which is ontologically prior to existence. Mystery means more than 'presently unknown.' Mystery suggests that the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Mystery means a transcendental horizon which outstrips the mind like the expanding edge of the universe outstrips any physical attempt to overtake it. One can't penetrate the expanding horizon of the universe because there is nothing beyond the expanding edge - it hasn't been created yet! It hasn't been created yet. It is not expanding 'into' anything, it is Unmanifest.

Ponder that, and a certain Transcendental quality will enter into your thinking. There is no space beyond the expanding edge of the universe. If you need physical vehicles for grokking the Transcendental, then here you are. Physics falls flat and therefore science falls flat because science can only explain the physical, not the metaphysical. The Unmanifest may well interpenetrate existence as well, at least according to mystics like Jacob Boehme. Non-Being ("Abyss") and Being ("Byss") co-exist and manifest in existence as, among other things, death and life respectively. The physical then partakes of metaphysical qualities if one thinks in correlations (which is indeed guesswork, but an intriguing possibility nevertheless).

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd."

William Shakespeare - To be, or not to be (from Hamlet 3/1)


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8968761 -

No you can't. Ultimate Reality precedes the existence of the universe. That is exactly the point, which you fail to get every time.

Yes I can. Just as much as repeating a bunch of unprovable mystery forum stuff as some kind of truth. It's always you who fail in getting real IMO.

You keep repeating the same thing as if it were some kind of evidence just like the bible thumpers telling me it's true because it sez so in the bible. Come on Markos, your posts belong in the Mystery forum and are no different then the other posts over there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8968848 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:THAT which is ontologically prior to existence.


Existence implies that which is.  Whatever is prior to existence implies that this whatever isn't; and thus, Ultimate Reality does not exist.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8968968 -

i feel a great pith coming on


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8969068 -

That's absurd, or a separate meaning attributed to my own use of the words.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8969073 -

It just seems to me that the concept of anything ontologically prior to existence is meaningless.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8969170 -

Read some contemporary cosmology, not the ancient cosmogonies of myth.
No Ultimate Reality - absurd. Solipcism maybe? Only Icelander defines Reality? How can you even formulate that there is NO Reality? I only say things like that with regard to our existence, relative to Eternity, but otherwise, what do YOU posit as being Real? We do not live in a 'Steady State' cosmos, so I'd like to hear what YOU call the Origin or Source? LOL :laugh: WTF? Be reasonable with the language! No Reality??!! What could that possibly even mean? Forget, 'It's turtles all the way down,' this looks like 'It's Icelanders all the way down!' You're sounding like a Bible-head who says the cosmos was created in six sidereal days! And I'm a "bible thumper?" That's rich!

I think my posts are rather different from unsubstantiated postulates in that 'other' forum. I'm referring back to your reality and mine in a cosmic context. Sorry if you don't get it, I'm being as clear and concise as I can. :shrug:

No Reality? UnReality? No Ultimate Reality, only provisional reality, non-Ultimate Reality??? :tongue: Nothing? No higher dimensions other than 3 spatial and one temporal? Que? Huh? What about Zero dimension at 10 to the minus 43rd second? :eek: Where is THAT? Went away? :shrug:

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8969175 -

More to the point--even if there is an Ultimate Reality, what good is it?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8969190 -

Yeah, really!  Unless Ultimate Reality plans to show up and clean my house, iron my clothes & empty the cat pan, I'm not interested.  :lol:

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8969224 -

Exist: to have real being whether material or spiritual.

How could Ultimate Reality not exist?  If it preceded existence, then it would not be real.  If it was not real, it would not be reality.

This is not to say that existence has always been existence as we know it, but rather to say that "Ulimate Reality" does not jibe with non-existence.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8969225 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Read some contemporary cosmology, not the ancient cosmogonies of myth.
No Ultimate Reality - absurd. Solipcism maybe? Only Icelander defines Reality? How can you even formulate that there is NO Reality? I only say things like that with regard to our existence, relative to Eternity, but otherwise, what do YOU posit as being Real? We do not live in a 'Steady State' cosmos, so I'd like to hear what YOU call the Origin or Source? LOL :laugh: WTF? Be reasonable with the language! No Reality??!! What could that possibly even mean? Forget, 'It's turtles all the way down,' this looks like 'It's Icelanders all the way down!' You're sounding like a Bible-head who says the cosmos was created in six sidereal days! And I'm a "bible thumper?" That's rich!

I think my posts are rather different from unsubstantiated postulates in that 'other' forum. I'm referring back to your reality and mine in a cosmic context. Sorry if you don't get it, I'm being as clear and concise as I can. :shrug:

No Reality? UnReality? No Ultimate Reality, only provisional reality, non-Ultimate Reality??? :tongue: Nothing? No higher dimensions other than 3 spatial and one temporal? Que? Huh? What about Zero dimension at 10 to the minus 43rd second? :eek: Where is THAT? Went away? :shrug:


Only I define reality? When did I ever claim to know what reality was? Remember I'm the one who sez I'm not sure what is ultimate truth and you are the one who knows. Now really Markos how would I know the source of everything? :rofl2: That's truly laughable that I with a finite mind could know that. IMO only a fool would claim they know. You seem to be putting a lot of words in my mouth dear boy.

When did I say there was "no reality"? All I said is that something could come from nothing as far as I know not being the mystical guru of all truth and knowledge.

I think my posts are rather different from unsubstantiated postulates in that 'other' forum.

Not to me and some others but maybe we are more discerning. Your claims also seem unsubstantiated.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (09/22/08 06:04 PM)

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8969243 -

The Cypher said:
More to the point--even if there is an Ultimate Reality, what good is it?


It may have no real use but the belief in it is a good way to placate death anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8969280 -

That entirely depends upon your interpretation of Ultimate Reality.  The continuation of one's soul after death is a far different matter from whether or not Reality with a capital R exists, methinks.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8969289 -

Neither one has any reasonable proofs behind it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Veritas]
    #8969291 -

Not exactly the response one might expect from one who moderates a philosophy & spirituality forum. Does house cleaning somehow define the 'givens' of your existential predicament? Sartre? Camus? Meleau-Ponty? Jaspers? Yalom? Zen? Gee...let me ponder this...

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8969303 -

Is there no such thing as a joke on your planet?:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8969588 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Not exactly the response one might expect from one who moderates a philosophy & spirituality forum. Does house cleaning somehow define the 'givens' of your existential predicament? Sartre? Camus? Meleau-Ponty? Jaspers? Yalom? Zen? Gee...let me ponder this...


Yes, the dirty cat pan is a metaphor for existential angst.  The odor, the piles of feces, the conflict between my love for the cats and my intense dislike of their waste, my petty annoyance at the way they track litter onto the floor, and the way the stray litter hurts my bare feet...OH!  The Humanity!

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Veritas]
    #8970156 -

It seems to me the idea of constructing a reality outside the wall of observability is simply another attempt at declaring the separation from God. Although certainly in this 'reality' of made purely of metaphoric construct it is a valid place to locate association. It seems to me, however, that following the logic of what happened before time will take you not to a place outside of time; but instead to the intentions of the actual creator- the creator of the concept.

That is to say- you will exit time- realizing that time too is simply a concept with which you build a metaphor to touch, and you will instead now choose to touch the metaphor of a different writer, and to come to know Him (the Creator of the metaphor, in all his human actuality).

I like your approach Markos, if the context is the content it is surely truth. Remember though, so too is the content the context.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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