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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8962712 -

ExplosiveMango said:
Icelander said:
The nice thing about the mystical vs materialistic approach is that the mystic can keep doing the work around until everything fits.

While the mystical approach certainly feels good on so many levels it can't get by my reality meter so unfortunately I can't make use of it. For some silly reason I think being logical and truthful with myself is important. That might be my mistake but it's too late now.


The nice thing about the materialistic vs mystic approach is that the materialist can keep going around doing the work and pretending it fits.

While the materialistic approach certainly feels good on so many levels it tends to clog the reality filter so unfortunately it makes use of you. For some important reason the materialist defines being logical and truthful with the self to be silly. We can keep on making the mistake forever if we decide it's too late now.


Your best post ever. The great thing is all your posts are such original thought. These posts speak for themselves.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8962733 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
"The nice thing about the mystical vs materialistic approach is that the mystic can keep doing the work around until everything fits.

While the mystical approach certainly feels good on so many levels it can't get by my reality meter so unfortunately I can't make use of it. For some silly reason I think being logical and truthful with myself is important. That might be my mistake but it's too late now."


Once upon a time there were two school chums: Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph von Schelling (1775-1854) and Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel (1770-1831). Schelling was the innovator, Hegel took Schelling's stuff and became more famous, but:

"Hegel boldly affirms that reason is fundamental and ultimate for God and humanity: 'What is real is rational, and what is rational is real.' The very essence of God is rational dialectic, as is his self-realization in history...Art, religion and the human's quest for freedom are all aspects and functions of Divine Reason's self-comprehension. Hegel believes that he writes the definitive biography of God. He is the most ambitious thinker of a long rationalist tradition that stretches back to Aristotle, Plato, and Parmenides. He is also the last.

Schelling always held a more modest view of reason, which earned him Hegel's scorn...Schelling's modesty about human reason reflects his doctrine of God. He recognises the Ungrund - the groundless, nonrational, spontaneous, fully free element in the divine nature. In this he is more faithful to Boehme than to Nicholas Cusa (and Hegel), who define define God's essence as dialectical reason. The rationally open nature of God means that the creation of the world and the reality of evil cannot be explained fully and that human history cannot be predicted. God's freedom entails human freedom because humans participate in God. History is a genuine adventure in which God and humanity cooperate in mutual enrichment and fulfillment. Nothing is predetermined except that evil and suffering will ultimately be eliminated when God and the fully humanized world are all in all."

- Panentheism: The Other God of the Philosophers by John W. Cooper, pp. 118-119


Thanks for the religious spurt. I already know that fantasy.:doggystyle: Until somebody can give any credible evidence of a god then I refuse to believe in fairy tails for the reasons I posted.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (09/21/08 11:32 AM)

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8963007 -

The Cypher said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I am contending that Realization is the metaphysical Reality of Transcendental Self-Awareness. As metaphysical, it transcends the material and hence neurological in that it pre-exists the material and neurological, both temporally and ontologically.
This ignorance is alive an unwell, even today, and even at The Shroomery.


This theory is all very well and good, but how do you know this?


:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8963901 -

YOU are the only one who can see and know. The responsibility lies only with you, there will never be a "somebody" to see this for you - ever.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8964004 -

Tell me something I don't already know. But of course that don't stop you from replying to my posts.:crazy2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8964244 -

Quote:
Tell me something I don't already know.


Dolphins sleep with one eye open.


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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8964582 -

Which eye?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8965360 -

Yeah, and it doesn't stop you from responding to mine either. Maybe we should just ignore one another.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8965371 -

The P&S forum needs to have a deathmatch thread about God between Icelander and MarkosTheGnostic.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8965403 -

You don't lose if you don't play.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: deCypher]
    #8965689 -

Nobody says that there is no such thing as Ultimate Reality - THAT which is Ultimately Real and True. Ultimate Reality is the philosophical expression for 'God,' which is the religious expression, often spoken of in mythic and metaphorical language. Since nobody can deny that there is an essential Reality - THAT which existed before the universe, THAT Mystery which IS ontologically prior to existence, the only objection that people can have is with one another's understanding of the Mystery. Even before that, the question: 'Can one understand the Mystery?' is one that Icelander simply says 'no' to. I also do not believe that Ultimate Reality can be comprehended rationally. I do believe that It can be Intuited, and that we participate in It and have our existence grounded in it like every other particle of existence. I go so far to say that we communicate with Ultimate Reality and It communicates with us, because we are intimately connected, even though It utterly transcends existence.

I have not put a name or a face to Ultimate Reality, but I live so as to Realize my moment-to-moment existence as completely dependent on It. It is a truism. All existence arises from pre-existent Being, from the Singularity to my own existence. I see patterns - not just visual patterns, but repetitions in theme and form. I see cycles both inwardly and outwardly. I see design in all things. I see symmetry, and coincidences of inner mental and outer physical events. All these things are 'fingerprints' of Divine Design. I am Platonic, because I see the phenomenal world as manifestations of Pure Ideas - Ideas which are not mine, which exist in their own right as expressions of Unmanifest Being, whatever that is. I consider myself to be a philosopher. Existence is suffused with meaning. The perception started with psychedelics but it has 'turned on' permanently. There can be no "death match" because there is no contest. I am not in competition, I don't enjoy competition. Life is competative enough without even trying. I cannot 'convert' someone to my perception of things, and that is not the point anyway. Conversion of perception always comes from within. Rituals like baptism merely demonstrate one's inner conversion to outer spectators.

Like a church, I enjoy the company of like minds, not because it affirms a sense that 'I am right,' but because it helps to annihilate the mental barriers of the egoic mind that keep us alienated within our walls of flesh and bone. And, typical of Gnostic perception, we 'sparks of light' are attempting to see through the illusion of alienation in order to Realize our Oneness with the 'Fullness' of the 'Gnostic Pleroma' - Ultimate Reality - God. All of us are headed to the Unmanifest anyway. We have to trust the process, indeed, we must learn to love the process. If nothing else, "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love" - 1 John 4:18 (KJV).

If there is any  argument at all, it comes down to how one deal's with death anxiety, pure and simple. I am trusting those beings whose writings express my own highest perceptions of Reality. They are my friends and my elder brothers. If they are all wrong, and some even willing to die for their Truth, then I will be wrong with them, but I think not. We all die to this world anyway and this lifetime is my own "experiment with Truth." I have nothing at all to lose, especially by this point in my life, and everything to gain in this life. I am in very good company conceptually with my brothers in "Cosmic Consciousness." :wink:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8965704 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yeah, and it doesn't stop you from responding to mine either. Maybe we should just ignore one another.


I like responding to you. I keep asking the same questions hoping you can provide something that might just convince me that a lifetime of experience just might be wrong. You may however ignore me to your hearts content.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8965707 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:Since nobody can deny that there is an essential Reality - THAT which existed before the universe, THAT Mystery which IS ontologically prior to existence


I agree with you that there is an Ultimate Reality, but does it really make sense to talk of it existing before the universe?  I'd argue that we can never truly know anything about Ultimate Reality; instead we can only make speculations based on our experience and reason.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8965749 -

Ultimate Reality is the philosophical expression for 'God,' which is the religious expression, often spoken of in mythic and metaphorical language.

I see no evidence that this is what Ultimate Reality is. This sounds like speculation. I could just as easily make a case for the findings of science being the only evidence of Ultimate Reality.


Since nobody can deny that there is an essential Reality - THAT which existed before the universe,

I can deny it. I have no idea if anything came before the known universe. There may have been but how could I know?

I do believe that It can be Intuited,

So you believe this and I believe that there is no good or consistent evidence of it. The difference being I am willing to admit that I don't know and you are not. This is a huge difference to me. And one that has to do with being truthful with oneself.

If there is any  argument at all, it comes down to how one deal's with death anxiety, pure and simple.

This is our point of agreement. And this debate may be nothing more then how we individually deal with it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8965827 -

Science can only go as far as The Big Bang. The Mystery that is prior to this physical event is the metaphysic that preoccupies my sense of awe and mystery. Awe is the primal religious emotion and has never left me.

Something does not come from nothing. This is what all Indian metaphsics is based on, and I am a student of Indian metaphsics and its apprehension via mysticism which is 'heightened' intuition. Sometimes it is heightened to what is called 'assurance' in Christian theology, and I'm willing to go with it rather than doubt it (to see what happens). A dimensional shift from Idea to matter is the simplest conceptual understanding. Ever read Flatland?

Denying doubts does not mean being dishonest. Denying doubts and affirming faith in one's experience, and the experience of one's friends is what separates us. I am as bold as anyone you'll ever meet in cutting at the roots of my own delusions, make no mistake about it. I'm not interested in infantile fantasies to buffer the Unmitigated Light of Reality. Paranormal, parapsychological, and beyond this psychic plane, mystical apperceptions are what I have trusted most, backed up by the writings of kindred souls - philosophical or scriptural. Non-ordinary realities made cracks in the walls of spacio-temporal illusion. I've stepped off that cliff, and like Carlos, apparently, "then I [too] was alone."

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8965875 -

Science can only go as far as The Big Bang. The Mystery that is prior to this physical event is the metaphysic that preoccupies my sense of awe and mystery. Awe is the primal religious emotion and has never left me.


This awe you speak of may just be an emotional response to your natural environment. I have often thought on how nature never puts colors and patterns together that look wrong or ugly to me like some interior decorators and landscapers. My guess is because it is what is natural to us and we are patterned around it if that is the correct term. I also feel a sense of awe when I think on these things but I don't think that it has any special significance.

Something does not come from nothing. This is what all Indian metaphsics is based on, and I am a student of Indian metaphsics and its apprehension via mysticism which is 'heightened' intuition. Sometimes it is heightened to what is called 'assurance' in Christian theology, and I'm willing to go with it rather than doubt it (to see what happens).

That's fine, "to see what happens" means you are making your best guess like the rest of us. It's all guesswork Markos. Guessing your mental/emotional/intuitional experiences mean this and not that. Something may come from nothing as that would not be more of a stretch to me than the fact that anything is here at all.

I am as bold as anyone you'll ever meet in cutting at the roots of my own delusions, make no mistake about it.

Sorry I can't go with this Markos. You don't know who I know and who I have met. No offense but I'm placing my bets on others in this case.

You've stepped off that cliff and ended up at the Shroomery with the rest of us beautiful metaphors notwithstanding.. And yes of course we are all alone each and every one of us. Nothing new there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8968027 -

Agonist and antagonist.
Both look like themselves in this game.
But which peers into the mirror;
which through the plane?
One can only know;
they see;
they are the same.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8968057 -

True, they are both nists.


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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Icelander]
    #8968063 -

Icelander said:
Chronic777 said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I am contending that Realization is the metaphysical Reality of Transcendental Self-Awareness. As metaphysical, it transcends the material and hence neurological in that it pre-exists the material and neurological, both temporally and ontologically. In other words, Realization is one way of speaking of the Eternal Verity. It is, was and will be, before, during and after any material-neurological entities exist. Neurological structures manifest that Realization in space-time, but Realization is, again, the self-Awareness of Transcendental Reality. It is Eternal.




If only they had the ears to hear you...


:peace:


Yeah Chronic your beliefs are in good company here.

This rest of us are just ignorant heathens.


Theres no belief involved, only honest investigation into nature practiced internally not externally.



--------------------

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Re: Eckhart Tolle: "Being" [Re: Chronic7]
    #8968278 -

:rofl2::monkeydance: Good one.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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