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whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions?
    #8685228 -

anyone know about how this works? seems to be some sort of hydrogen on demand system.


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PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8685279 -

Yeah it's electrolytic conversion of water into hydrogen and oxygen, so it is hydrogen on demand, provided you have enough electricity.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8685399 -

These have been discussed ad nauseam here.  In short, when touted as a fuel source for cars they are scams.

You can find lots of info right away in a search probably.

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #8687195 -

> whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions?

It is a fancy name for something that has been around for a couple hundred years.  When you hear HHO or Brown Gas, immediately think scam.

> it's electrolytic conversion of water into hydrogen and oxygen, so it is hydrogen on demand, provided you have enough electricity.

Correct (almost... it is mixed hydrogen and oxygen gas on demand).  You add energy into water to break it apart into a balanced mix of hydrogen and oxygen gas, then burn the gas mixture, resulting in water plus heat.  You always get less energy out (in the form of heat) than what you put in (in the form of electricity).

> These have been discussed ad nauseam here.  In short, when touted as a fuel source for cars they are scams.

Exactly!  HHO or Brown Gas equates to scam.  (The Space Shuttle's three main engines burn the same mixture of hydrogen and oxygen during launch... you don't hear NASA talking about magical HHO or Brown Gas... the shuttle burns a stochimetric mix of hydrogen and oxygen gas.)


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8688492 -

I had believed this was a completely worthless pursuit for some time and it more than likely still is, but I have read some things lately that had me wondering.  I'll explain why I'm wondering and would like for comments as to why I would be wrong.  I'm probably missing something here.

I came across a forum dedicated to improving gas mileage wherein a bunch of users are building their own converters and installing on them car.  Some of these guys are reportedly getting some fairly impressive results.  Most of them are DIY types and have no commercial interests in the tech and freely detail their specs.  I realize they could be "inventing" their results but they have a fairly large user base with video and pictures detailing their individual builds so it seems a little unlikely to me that they are all fabricating results.  It would be a lot of effort for a prank. 

They readily admit it can't replace gasoline or diesel, only supplement it.  The consensus among those who claim to have it working is that the hydrogen allows for greater combustion efficiency and a much leaner mixture of gas.  Many of them install the systems to find that it indeed works, for a couple of days and then they're right back where they started.  Why?  Modern engines use 02 sensors to correctly meter fuel to maintain a stoichiometric ratio.  Apparently the HHO causes the O2 sensor to read too much oxygen so it rightly injects more fuel to correct the ratio.  When special modules are spliced in between the O2 sensors and the engine management computer to compensate, that's when it works.

The people who have apparently gotten the best results are those on motorcycles without elaborate computer control.  Interestingly most users report their vehicles feel noticeably more powerful as well. 

What actually made take pause was reading the debate about the 2nd law of thermodynamics and one of the proponents rebuttals.  He argued that the modern alternator produces more energy than the engine and electronics requires anyway and that it was already going to waste.  Just capturing that energy for the electrolysis meant it could now be put to use.  Most alternators produce well over 100 amps and these guys are typically drawing only 10 or less and produce several liters of HHO a minute.  As far as I know, current draw on the alternator doesn't increase load on the engine, but I'm not sure.   

I did find sources claiming that they're are some scientific/engineering papers that do show that combustion efficiency can be improved with hydrogen, but I didn't find the papers (I also admittedly didn't look that hard).  However I did find a Popular Mechanics column talking about these devices where the author also verified these claims (about the papers existence) but that they only showed increase of a few percent - nothing like what these people are claiming (average 30-40% increase on the high end but more typically 15-20%, maybe even a little less).

So that's what has me wondering again.  What's weird to me that is nearly everyone who purchased a commercially available HHO generator and accessories has come to forum claiming it didn't work.  The people who claim to have it working are nearly all do it yourselfers.  I've considered that they're running lean, but if that were it they still wouldn't see that much of an increase in MPG nor the extra power.  Not only that but they would destroy their engines in short order.  Are all these people lying or is something else going on here?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #8688513 -

Quote:
He argued that the modern alternator produces more energy than the engine and electronics requires anyway and that it was already going to waste.


No, thats not how it works.  The difficulty in turning the alternator increases as the electrical load it powers increases.

Quote:
As far as I know, current draw on the alternator doesn't increase load on the engine, but I'm not sure. 



Of course it does!  Think about if the alternator didnt put a load on the enginge... you could hook a billion of them onto one engine and power the whole world.. yea right...



Have you never seen the little demonstration of electrical motors where there are two electrical motors attached to each other by wires?  You turn one and the other turns, the power is transmitted electrically.  If you restrict one of them, it takes more power to turn the other!

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8688520 -

I knew that the alternator put a load on the engine, I just didn't think it increased that load with an increased draw on it.

Edit - I thought their output was static.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (07/27/08 02:23 PM)

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8688521 -

Quote:
Some of these guys are reportedly getting some fairly impressive results.  Most of them are DIY types and have no commercial interests in the tech and freely detail their specs.  I realize they could be "inventing" their results but they have a fairly large user base with video and pictures detailing their individual builds so it seems a little unlikely to me that they are all fabricating results.  It would be a lot of effort for a prank. 


I woulndt say they are 'lying' or 'pulling a prank'... They are most likely just untrained and inexperienced at collecting the proper data and doing a proper analysis.

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #8688534 -

HagbardCeline said:
I knew that the alternator put a load on the engine, I just didn't think it increased that load with an increased draw on it.

Edit - I thought their output was static.


I see what you mean, but no that is not the case.  There is a set amount of power that is wasted from friction (which depends on engine RPM only) and the rest of the power goes into the electrical resistance (which is proportional to the load and work the electronics have to do).

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8688642 -

Don't think I'm arguing this with you because I believe you're wrong.  I'm sure you're probably right.  This is more of a devil's advocate position and me just wanting to make sure I'm covering all the bases.

Could it actually produce that much more load on the engine though?  If it did enough to cause a noticeable difference, then you would get better mileage with the radio and headlights turned off.

I just found some write-ups about alternators talking about car stereo installations that says most can handle at least an extra 30 amps of draw.  I realize that this is only secondary to the main point, but if (strictly hypothetically) hydrogen could increase efficiency it would have to be enough to overcome the additional load the electrolysis would impose.  I've never experienced worse performance from the engine from a custom stereo nor heard of anyone who has.

Setting aside for a moment whether or not HHO will produce a noticeable increase in efficiency, I'm just trying to figure out in this circumstance of installing a converter on an automobile if the argument of the 2nd Law of Therm. is applicable since you would be using excess capacity of the alternator. 

How much more load on the engine do you think the converter would actually impose?  Since we know that burning the hydrogen will undoubtedly provide some power and from what I've experienced and just read, I think any increased load on the engine would negligible, is it actually violating physics?

Edit - Seems most car stereos draw between 5-15 amps.  I just don't think that the draw from the converters is enough to cause an appreciable increase on engine load.  Definitely not enough to measure through MPG.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (07/27/08 02:59 PM)

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8688644 -

I'm no expert on the specifics of the electronics of a car, but doesn't all the electrical energy which goes into running a car (spark cycles, lights, AC, etc.) come off the battery, and not directly from the alternator?  The battery provides the DC voltage for the car's subsystems, which is be constant, since the alternator is spinning at a rate proportional to the engine, and as such, never has a consistent output.  Doesn't the alternator just work to charge the battery? 

Hence, if this is the case, isn't the load on the alternator is dependent on the charge of the battery (the position of the redox equilibrium), and its own internal resistance and friction?


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Edited by Minstrel (07/27/08 02:57 PM)

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: Minstrel]
    #8688746 -

Think of the electrical load in watts not amps, because watts is power.  The wattage needed to run a stereo is negligible, kind of like climbing a very shallow incline - you can barely notice it (but the engine does have to do more work to climb an incline, or power a stereo). 

The wattage needed to perform electrolysis on enough water to to do work is necessarily more than the wattage the hydrogen will provide you back.  This is as you know, the second law.

Quote:
How much more load on the engine do you think the converter would actually impose?


Alot.

Quote:
Since we know that burning the hydrogen will undoubtedly provide some power and from what I've experienced and just read, I think any increased load on the engine would negligible, is it actually violating physics?



Absolutely.

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8689063 -

Note that you actually do get a performance increase from injecting things into the engine - hydrogen gas is one, and water (small amounts) is another. Big trucks sometimes do this, as do people who hang out on web forums and talk about tuning up their cars.
This is not the same as making a car that runs on hydrogen or water - the additives are used to help the combusion in the cylinders (I don't know the full details).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: zouden]
    #8691288 -

> He argued that the modern alternator produces more energy than the engine and electronics requires anyway and that it was already going to waste.

Nice if it were true, but that isn't how it works.  As the load on the alternator increases, the load on the engine will increase as well.  The load on the alternator dictates how much power the alternator produces.  The alternator might only be running at 10% of maximum load, but that doesn't mean that 90% is going to waste.

>  I've never experienced worse performance from the engine from a custom stereo nor heard of anyone who has.

Assuming the custom stereo draws more power than the stock stereo, then you did experience worse performance, you just didn't realize it.  This is important, because it leads back into your original post and highlights the big problem with the first hand accounts...

It is trivial to put an engine on a dyno and measure the fuel effeceincy of the engine under load. This is an insta-publication for somebody, were the hho-brown-gas scam true.

>  I just don't think that the draw from the converters is enough to cause an appreciable increase on engine load.

... then why do you think that you are going to get an appreciable return?

> Interestingly most users report their vehicles feel noticeably more powerful as well. 

This could be anything from placebo to the fact that they just worked on their engine installing the silly thing.  My car almost always feels more powerful after I work on the engine.  Something as simple as changing an alternator belt makes it purr.  Is it really running better?  I donno.  But it sure seems to be running better.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #8691388 -

HagbardCeline said:
Could it actually produce that much more load on the engine though?  If it did enough to cause a noticeable difference, then you would get better mileage with the radio and headlights turned off.


Indeed one does.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: DieCommie]
    #8692109 -

Well I believe I'm again satisfied.  As I said, the only thing made me take pause was the alternator thing.  Had these things simply been using waste energy, I thought that maybe there was a chance.  Without that, considering the rest of the argument is pointless.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #8692345 -

> As I said, the only thing made me take pause was the alternator thing.

You have the right mindset.  A nice mix of an open mind, but if it sounds too good, then it probably is.  There are plenty of things for the next Tesla to discover, but unfortunately, for every Tesla throughout time, there are a million wannabes.

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Re: whats the deal with Brown gas HHO conversions? [Re: Seuss]
    #8692948 -

Seuss said:
> As I said, the only thing made me take pause was the alternator thing.

You have the right mindset.  A nice mix of an open mind, but if it sounds too good, then it probably is.  There are plenty of things for the next Tesla to discover, but unfortunately, for every Tesla throughout time, there are a million wannabes.


:yesnod:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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