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Offlinewingnutx
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Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets
    #1471027 - 04/18/03 06:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The Powerball Concept . . .

The concept behind Powerball Technologies is to tame energy, (so to speak) and to store one powerful element - sodium (or sodium hydride) - in order to later get Hydrogen on Demand.

Powerball fuel pelletsTM store and produce hydrogen on demand. Each gallon of powerball fuel pellets produces hundreds of gallons of hydrogen upon contact with water on an as-needed basis. Powerball fuel pelletsTM offer a safe, compact, and inexpensive alternative to the delivery, storage and use of compressed or liquid hydrogen for a wide range of applications which require a clean source of hydrogen.

Powerball fuel pelletsTM are not an energy source. We will never drill a hole in the ground and discover a large reserve of hydrogen or hydride pellets. Instead, fuel pellets can be used as an efficient energy carrier. The hydride pellets can be produced using energy from diverse energy sources all over the world such as biomass, natural gas, wind energy, hydroelectric power, and solar energy. Because they are safe and energy dense they can be distributed to buses, boats, houses, and hydrogen users by rail, sea, or highway. Powerball fuel pelletsTM offer new options for the distribution of energy that do not rely on oil pipelines or electricity transmission lines. Even a disruption in a natural gas pipeline, for instance, would not preclude the distribution of powerball fuel pelletsTM via trucks, trains or ships to where energy is needed.

Additionally, when powerballs are used to provide hydrogen to vehicles or stationary applications there are no point-of-use hydrocarbon emissions or carbon oxide emissions. When powerballs are transferred from one tank into another tank, there are also zero emissions. Therefore, powerball fuel pelletsTM are a responsible and environmentally friendly energy carrier.

http://www.powerball.net/concept/index.shtml


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: wingnutx]
    #1471032 - 04/18/03 07:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

This allows centralized production of hydrogen fuel, with safe and easy distribution. Hydrogen is not really a fuel source as much as a storage medium, so this would allow you place your production facilities in an optimum location. Want to make hydrogen with solar? Just build the plant in Death Valley, then truck pellets up to rainy Portland to use. Same goes with hydro or geothermal sources.

More likely, on-site hydrogen production at nuclear facilities.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: wingnutx]
    #1473073 - 04/19/03 01:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I would have to argue with your contention that hydrogen is a storage medium. These pellets are a storage medium, hydrogen is the fuel. Unless you consider gasoline a storage medium, in which case, all matter is a storage medium. This is correct as matter is the physical manifestation of energy, however, I think in general terms, hydrogen is a fuel.

jssmthrfcknchrst


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1473206 - 04/19/03 02:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

A storage medium for energy, because it?s created by investing energy into it, and because it again gives of that energy at burning.

There are no(major) natural sources of H2, as opposed to oil.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1473263 - 04/19/03 03:10 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Hydrogen is not a fuel SOURCE, i.e. you can't drill for it and get more energy back than you put into it.

It is a fuel in the sense that you burn it, sure.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: wingnutx]
    #1473358 - 04/19/03 04:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Then we agree that gasoline is not a fuel source. As in you can't drill for gasoline. OK, that I would agree with. However, can we be sure that there arn't places (in space) that would could get hydrogen directly? Hydrogen gas clouds, or hydrogen 'planets'? It is closer to a fuel source than gasoline or even crude oil for that matter... Crude oil, although it can be drilled for presently, cannont be created without 'investing' great amounts of energy into. Far less energy is extrated from oil than the energy that was put into it. Through various methods, the total loss of energy creating hydrogen from raw natural resources is less than the loss in creating oil and then gasoline from raw natural resources.

If this is too convoluted, feel free to ignore:)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1473424 - 04/19/03 04:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

> Far less energy is extrated from oil than the energy that was put into it


I doubt this. Actually I know this is not the case.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: Anno]
    #1473448 - 04/19/03 04:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If you are thinking about just the pumping and refining aspects of getting usable engergy from oil, then you would be correct. But if you take into account the thousands (if not millions) of years that it took to create the crude oil, you would see that it really is an inefficent storage medium for energy. Oil is formed from highly compressed decaying organic materials. That means all this oil we burn up was plants, animals, even ancient humans. All of those required food, water, and sunlight. Thousands and thousands (once again, if not millions) of years worth of energy condensed, that can still only make you travel 30 miles per gallon of it. There must be some lost in that process.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1473738 - 04/19/03 06:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The point is that WE didn't put all that energy into crude oil, nature did. We expend a tiny bit of energy to drill and get back all that stored solar/biochemical energy.

Maybe someday we'll get more hydrogen from bacteria, but for now it takes a lot of electricity, a lot more than we'll get back out of it.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: wingnutx]
    #1473762 - 04/19/03 06:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We can use nature to generate the energy needed to produce the hydrogen. We could use moving water (hydro) to create hydrogen from electrolysis for instance; using the water to create the energy to extract energy from it. What could be more karmatic/ying-yang than that?


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1473859 - 04/19/03 07:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly. That makes hydro the energy source, and hydrogen the storage medium.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1475711 - 04/20/03 07:04 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What he said....


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: Anno]
    #1478090 - 04/21/03 03:05 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If the hydro is used to extract the hydrogen, then the Oil pumps would be the energy source and the Oil would be the storage medium. Follow?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1478233 - 04/21/03 05:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No.
You?re wrong. Sorry. Nothing one can do about.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: Anno]
    #1478539 - 04/21/03 11:33 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

No.
You?re wrong. Sorry. Nothing one can do about.



I know I'm wrong, thats the point. :smile: Oil is not a storage medium, and neither is hydrogen.

Personally, I don't think you can so clearly separate the energy source from the storage medium. Once you begin to use the energy in a storage medium, it becomes an energy source.

In my example, I said we could use Hydropower to generate Hydrogen through electrolysis. Electrolysis, fyi, is the separation of Water to its base components Oxygen and Hydrogen by passing an electric current through it. We are not really placing the energy in anything, we are just using it to extract the hydrogen from the water. Similarly, an oil pump is extracting the oil from the ground (or through refining, Gasoline is extracted from Crude oil). When the Hydrogen is put into pellets or even a tank, then a Storage Medium is created. Similarly, when the Oil (or Gasoline) is put in a can, another Storage Medium is created.

Maybe it would more correct to say that Crude Oil and Water are fuel sources, since Gasoline and Hydrogen, both fuels, can be extracted from them. No?

My point is, Hydrogen is not a storage medium, it is a fuel. Gasoline is not a storage medium, it is a fuel. Hydrogen Fuel Pellets are a storage medium, their fuel is Hydrogen. A gas can is a storage medium, its fuel is Gasoline.

I know my argument is convoluted, but I hope it makes sense. Otherwise, I must be losing my mind.... :smile:

jssmthrfcknchrst 


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1478568 - 04/21/03 11:46 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I don?t think you are loosing your mind, you are simply not well informed on this subject.

Please read the following links to see why hydrogen is widely considered as an energy storage medium.

http://www.gastec.com/knowledgebank/CORP_newsarticle.asp?ID=273
http://www.dri.edu/Projects/Energy/NewEnergy.html
http://www.dri.edu/Projects/Energy/Systems.html
http://www.solarhydrogen.com/pdfs/eng/press_e_01.pdf


Edited by Anno (04/21/03 11:46 AM)


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: Anno]
    #1478630 - 04/21/03 12:05 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In the context of these links, I suppose that storage medium could be the correct term, as the existing energy is 'stored' by converting it to hydrogen. Once again, it seems to come down to common usage of the term.

Being more specific, however, Electricity itself is not stored, it is converted to a material form, hydrogen, to be used later. In order to get electricity back out, the hydrogen must be burned or used in some other fashion.

Likewise, oil is the stored energy of thousands (or millions) of years worth of solar/bio/thermal/etc energy of the decayed materials from which it forms. It also is not pure energy, but the material manifestation of it. It too must be burned or in some otherway processed to create energy.

If we are to consider Hydrogen a storage medium, would Oil not be one as well? If not, what is the difference?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1478705 - 04/21/03 12:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

The difference:

You have energy, in form of electrical current.
This form of energy can?t be transported over waste distance without big losses and it can?t be stored in this form (except in an capacitor, but that?s another story).

So you look for possibilities to store this energy so you can use it once you need it.
So you produce hydrogen and for this production energy is required which is then stored as chemical energy.
You can release this chemical energy again either as thermal energy if you combust the hydrogen, or a combination of thermal and electrical energy if you use it in a fuel cell.

So what?s the difference between crude oil and hydrogen?

Hydrogen is directly produced by humans with the purpose to act as energy carrier.

Crude oil of course also stores energy(solar energy), but it?s not deliberately "produced" by humans, produced in terms of created from another substance.

So again: both, hydrogen and crude oil store energy, with the big difference, that the oil is already there, and the hydrogen is deliberately produced.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: Anno]
    #1478784 - 04/21/03 12:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

So the only difference is that humans are deliberatly producing the Hydrogen? If we were to deliberatly produce oil, would there then be no difference? If we found a Hydrogen Cloud in space would it then not be a storage medium?

In those terms, I guess hydrogen would be a storage medium. But...

Gasoline is deliberatly produced, to transport energy in an efficient to use form, is it a storage medium?


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: Hydrogen as solid fuel pellets [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1479692 - 04/21/03 07:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If we found and used a cloud in space then it would be an energy source.

All this semantic crap aside, powerballs are really fucking cool!


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