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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8301015 -

> Fusion power is really the only hope.

Ding! We have a winner!

Now, lets all play a little game and look to see who is supporting research into fusion power vs who is supporting research into renewable energy and investing (or pushing) fission power. Pay very close attention to the oil industry, politicians, and the global warming crowd. If you put on a bit of tinfoil and remove the peril sensitive glasses, there are some interesting relationships between the various groups.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Seuss]
    #8303586 -

Man made global warming is a hoax. Here's absolute undisputeable proof.

http://SriBaba.fileave.com/SciMag/386.html

http://SriBaba.fileave.com/SciMag/442.pdf



Science 16 October 1998:
Vol. 282. no. 5388, pp. 386 - 387
DOI: 10.1126/science.282.5388.386

News of the Week
CLIMATE CHANGE:
Possibly Vast Greenhouse Gas Sponge Ignites Controversy
Jocelyn Kaiser

As greenhouse warming experts try to predict how much the world's climate may heat up in the next century, they keep bumping up against a mystery: Where does much of the carbon dioxide (CO2) pumped into the air actually end up? Answering this question could have huge ramifications for nations that ratify the climate change treaty signed in Kyoto, Japan, last December: Countries shown to harbor substantial carbon "sinks" could argue that an ability to soak up excess CO2 should offset their emissions.

If those arguments prevail, it appears that North America may have drawn the winning ticket in the carbon sink sweepstakes. In what is shaping up as one of the most controversial findings yet to emerge in the greenhouse gas debate, a team of researchers on page 442 of this issue of Science presents evidence that North America sops up a whopping 1.7 petagrams of carbon a year--enough to suck up every ton of carbon discharged annually by fossil fuel burning in Canada and the United States. The magnitude of the apparent sink, says team member Jorge Sarmiento of Princeton University, "is going to be a lightning rod for all sorts of criticism."

Indeed, critics have already thrown up a fistful of red flags, attacking the study for everything from its methodology to its implications. "There's a huge amount of skepticism about the result," says ecologist David Schimel of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, who notes that at least one other group has calculated a much smaller North American sink. Moreover, a second paper in this issue--by a group led by Oliver Phillips of the University of Leeds in the United Kingdom (p. 439)--adds to the uncertainty. It points to a carbon sink in tropical South America so large that it is hard to reconcile with the Sarmiento group's results.

Disappearing act. Contours show how predicted CO2 levels (in parts per million) would change if there were no terrestrial uptake in North America. Measured levels decline, rather than increase, from west to east North America, however, implying a large carbon sink.

CREDIT: S. FAN ET AL.

Especially worrisome, Schimel and others say, is that groups opposed to the Kyoto treaty will seize on the estimate to argue that the United States doesn't need to reduce its emissions to comply with the accord. "We're all really concerned that many people will find it convenient to accept the result," Schimel says. At the same time, scientists say this sort of calculation is a key step toward honing our understanding of the global carbon cycle. "The authors deserve a lot of credit for sticking their necks out," says climate modeler Inez Fung of the University of California, Berkeley.

At the heart of the debate is a simple math problem, resembling a chronic inability to balance one's checkbook, that has bedeviled scientists for nearly 2 decades. The balance sheet looks like this: Less than half of the 7.1 petagrams of carbon produced by human activity each year stays in the atmosphere. Although about 2 petagrams go into the oceans, another 1.1 to 2.2 petagrams appear to vanish into the land, likely taken up by plants during photosynthesis. Figuring out what's going on--whether the extra CO2 is spurring faster tree growth, for example, or carbon is disappearing into soils--is crucial to learning whether reforestation and other actions might help stave off warming (Science, 24 July, p. 504). "If you understood the mechanism, you'd be in a much better position to say whether the sink will continue," says biogeochemist Richard Houghton of Woods Hole Research Center in Massachusetts.

To get at how much carbon the different land masses are absorbing, Sarmiento and his colleagues with the Carbon Modeling Consortium (CMC), based at Princeton, used an approach called inversion modeling. They first gathered data on atmospheric CO2 levels taken from 1988 to 1992 at 63 ocean-sampling stations. Next, they divided the world into three regions--Eurasia, North America, and the rest--then fed the CO2 data into two mathematical models: one that estimates how much carbon the oceans absorb and release, and another that gauges how CO2 is spread across the globe by wind currents. When they fitted their models to the data, they found that, surprisingly, CO2 levels dropped off slightly from west to east across North America--even though fossil fuel emissions should boost levels in the east. That meant there must be a big carbon sink in North America.

Straining belief among other experts is the sink's estimated magnitude--1.7 petagrams of carbon per year, plus or minus 0.5 petagrams--roughly equaling the continent's fossil fuel carbon emissions of 1.6 petagrams. "It's hard for me to know where that much carbon could be accumulating in North America," says Houghton. Data from forest inventories suggest the U.S. sink absorbs only 0.2 to 0.3 petagrams of carbon a year. Sarmiento's team suggests that the inventories have missed a lot of forest regrowth on abandoned farmland and formerly logged forests in the east fertilized by CO2 or nitrogen pollution, and that they fail to account for carbon stored in soils and wetlands. But the result also suggests that Eurasia's immense forests are taking up only a fifth as much carbon as U.S. forests. "Ecologically, it seems almost incomprehensible," Schimel says.

Several modelers contend that the study is riddled with uncertainties. For one thing, the two models used to gauge carbon flux "could easily be off by just a little bit, and you get a very different conclusion," says Fung. The results could also be skewed by a dearth of data from the North Atlantic, as the authors note in their paper. For example, the group threw out readings off Sable Island, Nova Scotia, because the data were unreliable, says team member Pieter Tans of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Factoring in Sable Island, the sink shrinks by 30%.

Even if the results do hold up, observers note, the CMC study's time period includes the 1991 Mount Pinatubo eruption, which led to cooler, wetter conditions and a much higher global carbon uptake than usual. "Some of this sink must clearly be ... transient," says Martin Heimann, a modeler at the Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry in Jena, Germany. And the findings clash with those from a team led by Peter Rayner of Monash University in Australia, which calculates a North American sink of only 0.6 petagrams of carbon from 1988 to 1992--about one-third the CMC group's estimate. The Australian group's results will be published next year in Tellus.

The CMC team acknowledges that its results strain credibility. "I have trouble quite believing" the size of the sink, says Tans, adding that "We're pushing the data pretty far." But, says Sarmiento, "we've really carefully analyzed the data in a lot of different ways." U.S. Geological Survey geochemist Eric Sundquist agrees: "The paper is a credible and rigorous interpretation of the available data."

More and better data, including direct measurements of carbon storage and flux over land, will be needed to narrow the gap between the two studies. Already, this approach has turned up a big surprise: According to the U.K. group's results, undisturbed tropical forests in South America are getting thicker and may account for about 40% of the missing sink, a figure seemingly at odds with the CMC group's inversion results. The study is the first to pool data from measuring carbon storage, or biomass, over 2 decades at over 150 tropical forest plots worldwide. "This illustrates the types of studies that really need to be integrated," says Sundquist.

Before this research has time to mature, however, the possibly vast North American carbon sink could be the subject of heated debate in climate treaty implementation talks next month in Buenos Aires, Argentina. If the CMC team's findings are accurate, "the most obvious conclusion" would be that "there's no need for the U.S. and Canada to curb emissions," says Heimann. Indeed, Steven Crookshank of the American Petroleum Institute says the study "calls into question the scientific basis on which we're making these decisions, when we still don't know if the United States is even emitting any carbon in the net."

But some observers argue that a large North American sink should not be an excuse to go easy on emission controls. Maturing forests eventually stop storing carbon, so "this part of the missing sink [won't] be with us forever or even much longer," says atmospheric physicist Michael Oppenheimer of the Environmental Defense Fund in New York City. "The existence of the sink isn't important. What's important is the changes in the sink."


THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN CITED BY OTHER ARTICLES:
Ad Hoc Committee on Global Climate Issues: Annual Report.
(2000)
AAPG Bulletin 84, 466-471

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Luddite]
    #8303589 -


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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Luddite]
    #8303894 -

Quote:
Science 16 October 1998



good job posting all this up-to-date material... :whatever:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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. [Re: SoY]
    #8304331 -

.


--------------------
.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:11 AM)

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8305241 -

Quote:
Luddite, cut it out. I don't know if you're breaking forum rules, but you should be.. You are not a debater, or a legitimate poster, all you do is enter a thread and copy/paste an article that has only marginal relevance to that thread, and you do it in such a way that misleads people into believing your very slanted, misdirected view of science.



agreed

If your going to participate in a topic you should have to put forth a view. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen him show up to defend any of his points, instead he just links to some crap w/ a snide comment, if you're lucky, and leaves.

Especially when you post quazi posts about blacks or claim that it should be US policy to kill around twenty percent of the world on the basis of religion, islam, you should have to defend that view. Otherwise, I don't see how its anything but trolling.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: johnm214]
    #8305636 -

Luddite is the spice of life.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8305933 -

fireworks_god said:
Luddite is the spice of life.



Is that spice 'idiot' by chance?


--------------------

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8307180 -

Please, can we all play nice and stay on topic.  :peace:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/04/17/Nuclear.briefing/index.html:
Quote:
...
But aren't (nuclear reactors) massively expensive to build? Shouldn't we be using this money to invest in renewable energy?

These are points which critics regularly voice. Nuclear power stations do cost billions of dollars to construct.

There is also a considerable environmental cost in mining uranium, building reactors and disposing of the radioactive waste -- an average nuclear power plant produces around 30 tons of waste every year.

All these activities produce considerable amounts of CO2. The economic cost of waste disposal alone is vast. According to Friends of the Earth, disposing of the existing waste from the UK's 19 reactors will in total cost a staggering $110 billion. And this is all before we start worrying about decommissioning costs, potential leaks and disasters that come with the territory.




--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8308156 -

You are a shit head and mafia hit man, murderer.


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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: SoY]
    #8308162 -

SoY said:
Quote:
Science 16 October 1998



good job posting all this up-to-date material... :whatever:



You're just a tool of the liberal wankers.  You will be among the first to starve and be eaten by your neighbors.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Luddite]
    #8308366 -

Oopsie. Banned again.




Phred


--------------------

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Phred]
    #8308377 -

Phred said:
Oopsie. Banned again.




Phred



:congrats::bow: Finally! We can have a discussion without it being derailed by irrelevant articles and random insults... that is until Luddite/Great_Satan returns with another puppet. Thanks Phred!


--------------------

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #8308986 -

He's been banned, not permabanned. You were banned, too. Yet you are back. He will be, too, when his latest ban expires.

Permabans are not handed out lightly, and never by lowly moderators. Only Admins do permabans, and even then only in concert.




Phred


--------------------

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Phred]
    #8309532 -

He's not bad when he isnt posting crappy links and insulting.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8311319 -

I'm going to have to kindly disagree with many of the renewable energy advocates that say nuclear energy is not a safe or stable form of energy production. On the contrary, I find that hydroelectric, wind, and solar energy are too unstable to be appropriate forms of new age energy. None of them can exist without subsidies. Wind turbines simply take up too much space for the world's growing energy needs and solar is more pollutant than people realize. Making all those solar panels generates a tremendous amount of extremely toxic Chromium wastes and more is generated during repairs and maintenance. Unlike radioactive waste, Chromium deposits last forever. Hydroelectric is certainly far from guilt as well. Dams destroy river ecology and can change how the surrounding area is affected. In fact all of these supposedly clean resources cause much more environmental pollution and harm than nuclear energy ever could. They all also suffer from the sheer fact that none of them are able to compete economically with other sources of power such as oil, natural gas, coal, and especially nuclear energy. All renewable energy sources are so dependent on government subsidies that they're next to worthless and a big waste of time for everyone.

It also seems like the actual hazards and health risks associated with nuclear power seem to be very misunderstood (I honestly don't know of any fissile isotope that lasts millions of years except for Silicon-something or other). Stop spreading unwarranted fears. There are two kinds of nuclear waste: low-level radioactive waste and high-level radioactive waste. 98% of all nuclear waste is low-level. This includes simple things like irradiated clothing, equipment, metal, etc, and will normally lose all of its radioactivity within 50 years. The other miniscule 2% is high-level waste. This includes spent fuel cells and the like. This stuff DOES last for a very long time. Normally it will lose it's radioactivity after maybe 600 years. But lets back up a bit and examine what's in this high-level waste. Spent fuel normally contains leftover Uranium-238, 235, and Plutonium-239. Wait a minute, those are all fissile. Yep, a lot of the waste is still fissile but we can't use it because the Peanut Farmer from Hell in 1977 banned reprocessing. What does that mean? Basically there's a lot of unspent fuel that could be reprocessed, reused, and broken down into much less harmful substances that might last 40 or 50 years before it loses all its radioactivity. There's a tremendous amount of energy being put to waste and people start to bitch nonsensically about it when it's the opposition to nuclear energy that actually causes this excess waste to be dumped and remain a danger. Reprocessing would not only minimize the already miniscule volume of waste AND make it even less dangerous, but it would also extend the fuel supply immensely. Would you rather have your shitty solar cells with abounding Chromium wastes that toxify the environment forever or would you rather have some waste that sheds it's dangerous nature within 40-50 years?

In the past 50 years or so, I think I tallied the death toll from nuclear energy to be somewhere around 4,000 resulting from the ill-maintained and designed Chernobyl reactor accident, since that's really the only nuclear accident that's caused a significant number of casualties (I could include that experimental reactor SL-1 or 2 but it's minimal and doesn't have any impact). How many people have other energy industries poisoned? I know the World Health Organization predicted that 3 million people die each fucking year from indoor and outdoor pollution alone, I'm not even going to go into actual disasters. But in the past 50 years, nuclear energy has racked up a whopping death toll of 4,000. Real fucking damn dangerous isn't it?

The point still remains, renewable energy sources are worthless and do more harm than good. They're nothing but wishful thinking and definitely can't compete economically.

Sorry, I recently did a full blown research paper on nuclear energy.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: WeBeBad]
    #8311470 -

Thank you for getting us back on topic!


> (I honestly don't know of any fissile isotope that lasts millions of years except for Silicon-something or other).

Well, plutonium-244 has a half life of over 80 million years. Plutonium-242 has a half life of around 370,000 years (if I remember correctly, been a while) and plutonium-239 has a halflife of 24110 years (this one I do know for certain).

However, waste products from the reactor is only half the problem. There is a lot of waste from enrichment/reprocessing as well.

> Basically there's a lot of unspent fuel that could be reprocessed, reused, and broken down into much less harmful substances that might last 40 or 50 years before it loses all its radioactivity.

Which produces more waste as we remove the reusable parts from the non-reusable parts. It is a very dirty process.

> In the past 50 years or so, I think I tallied the death toll from nuclear energy to be somewhere around 4,000 resulting from the ill-maintained and designed Chernobyl reactor accident,

Direct deaths, or long term deaths due to cancer, birth defects, etc?

From Greenpeace[1], thus on the high end (to counter you very low end estimate):
Quote:
The new data, based on Belarus national cancer statistics, predicts approximately 270,000 cancers and 93,000 fatal cancer cases caused by Chernobyl. The report also concludes that on the basis of demographic data, during the last 15 years, 60,000 people have additionally died in Russia because of the Chernobyl accident, and estimates of the total death toll for the Ukraine and Belarus could reach another 140,000.



If you study nuclear accidents related to the US military (which you cannot do without security clearance) you will find some very frightening close calls. The US Navy is especially guilty. You might also want to look into Detroit and how close we came to an accident that would make Chernobyl look small. Three mile island, etc, the list goes on... most are kept quite or are classified by the military.

[1] http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/chernobyl-deaths-180406

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Seuss]
    #8311666 -

I don't think Plutonium-242 or 244 occur in large quantities of high-level radioactive waste. And Plutonium-239 could still be fissioned for a sizeable amount of energy. I'm not well versed in the other two.

Direct deaths and long term deaths from cancer. 4,000 is the number the UN endorsed Chernobyl Forum (assigned to assess the total cost of human life caused by Chernobyl) reported just a few years ago. I would hardly consider Greenpeace to be a reliable source for nuclear related death tolls. Political organizations tend to be rather bias or exaggerated. Same reason I don't listen to Amnesty International's death tolls, they're so bloated.

I'm also well aware of the breeder reactor incident near Detroit. 1967, right? This is the incident that seemed to phase out breeder reactors in the United States. I don't know if you understand the difference between a conventional Pressurized Water Reactor (PWR)/Boiling Water Reactor (BWR) and a breeder reactor so I'll explain it just in case.

A breeder reactor is a weird kind of experimental reactor. The idea behind it is solid, that being that a fissile core is fissioned inside of a Uranium-238 shell to produce much more energy in the form of output and Plutonium-239 material. The only problem is it has to be cooled with liquid Sodium. I'm not going to lie, that's bad juju. Makes them prone to explosions and such and the fission can become overly self-sustaining and cause a very serious nuclear catastrophe, indeed one probably worse than Chernobyl. But conventional PWR or BWR's (especially western designs) don't operate on the same principle. They're not prone to spontaneous nuclear explosion like a breeder reactor and can't ever produce one. Also, they ALL have what's called a containment shield built around the core. It's basically a big huge wall of reinforced concrete. In the case of a runaway reaction and meltdown, the mess will be contained inside of this shield, minimizing damage to civilians to zero.

Your comparison of Three-Mile Island to Chernobyl also isn't fair in the slightest. Want to know why Chernobyl was so bad? It was an extremely faulty Russian RMBK reactor design that did not have a containment shield. It should be noted that the RMBK design would never have passed Western regulations. Russian neglect hurt the citizens of Ukraine and Europe, not nuclear power. Three-Mile Island's reactor did meltdown and I think some radioactive substances were released into the atmosphere. But the media coverage was much more brutal than the actual incident itself. What was released into the atmosphere caused no hazards to the public. I'm sorry, but a Chernobyl could not happen on Western standards, it's actually because of Chernobyl that nuclear energy is even safer now because it shows what happens when you cut corners.

Breeder reactors in the United States have been mostly phased out as far as I know. I also don't support much the military's previous involvement with weapons grade Plutonium and Uranium. Luckily the Cold War's over and we can shed the need to build a nuclear arsenal and focus on a peaceful atom. I'd be more worried about radiation from coal plants than from nuclear waste.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: WeBeBad]
    #8313345 -

Quote:
I don't know if you understand the difference between a conventional Pressurized Water Reactor (PWR)/Boiling Water Reactor (BWR) and a breeder reactor so I'll explain it just in case.



I do, but many do not, so your effort isn't wasted.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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