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Heretical Position On Nuclear Power
    #8296977 -

This article shows the con artistry of environmentalism. Members of the anti-nuclear religion once threw temper tantrums and tried to stop the use of nuclear power, but now they support it. Soon the global warming charlatans will be exposed and we can use more coal for electricity, chemicals and liquids fuels for vehicles. Coal is the most abundant fossil fuel on earth.


Heretical Position On Nuclear Power
Some environmentalists believe nuclear power must be one option to combat catastrophic climate change
Bette Hileman

Environmentalists used to be almost universally opposed to nuclear power. Many groups recruited members and defined themselves by their steadfast, almost religious, opposition to the technology.

But during the past few years, several prominent environmental activists have come around to the idea that nuclear power must be considered as one option, along with other low-carbon technologies and energy efficiency, to address climate change. They also believe that if new coal plants are built, they should be designed to gasify coal to hydrogen and carbon dioxide and that the CO2 should be stored indefinitely in geological repositories or depleted oil wells (C&EN, Dec. 20, 2004, page 36).

Among those who have changed sides, the most famous is Patrick Moore, cofounder of Greenpeace, who quit the organization in 1986 after spending 15 years protesting nuclear power and decrying the dangers of nuclear waste. He now openly embraces the idea of building more nuclear reactors to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. James Lovelock, creator of the Gaia theory, is another prominent environmentalist who has decided that fears about nuclear power are exaggerated and that it must be expanded to avoid catastrophic climate change.

Other well-known environmental advocates have adopted a similar, but more tentative, stance. Fred Krupp, executive director of Environmental Defense; Jonathan Lash, president of the World Resources Institute; and James Gustave Speth, dean of Yale University's School of Forestry & Environmental Studies, say rather than rejecting nuclear power, solutions should be found to the economic, safety, waste storage, and proliferation problems.

It is not so much that these environmentalists like nuclear power. They know weapons-grade nuclear materials could fall into the hands of terrorists or rogue nations. They are aware that no country has figured out a satisfactory way to deal with nuclear waste and that, for an indefinite period, spent nuclear fuel may need to be stored in aboveground casks until safe underground repositories can be developed. They also know that, in the U.S. at least, nuclear power is more expensive than electricity from coal-fired boilers, hydroelectric plants, or wind turbines. The cost of operating nuclear plants is low, but outlays for construction and the long delays involved in getting permits and siting the plants raise the overall cost of nuclear electricity higher than that of other technologies.

Environmental thinkers, such as Moore and Krupp, however, believe that the dangers of irreversible climate disruption may be even greater than potential threats from nuclear plants. They subscribe to the view that global emissions of greenhouse gases must be stabilized over the next 10 years and reduced 50-80% by mid-century to avoid devastating impacts from climate change. They are especially concerned about the rapidly accelerating melting of ice now going on in polar regions. For example, satellite measurements, using both gravity and interferometer methods, show that about 240 km3 of the Greenland ice sheet is melting annually. Gravity data reveal that the melt rate in 2005 was three times faster than in the 1997-2003 period, when it was about 80 km3 per year.

They also worry about recent temperature changes in the Arctic. In the first seven months of 2006, Arctic temperatures soared 6.3 oF (3.5 oC) above the 30-year average to the highest ever for that period.

Moore, Krupp, and others with similar views worry that if CO2 emissions continue to grow unabated and the average global temperature rises as much as 5 oF (2.8 oC), which is in the middle of the predicted range of 2.5-10.4 oF, much of the Greenland ice sheet as well as a substantial part of the West Antarctic ice sheet may melt. They agree with Jonathan T. Overpeck, director of the Institute for the Study of Planet Earth at the University of Arizona that if greenhouse gas emissions are not curbed, sea level may rise 13-20 feet (4-6 meters) during this century. A rise at the higher end of this range would cause the inevitable loss of much of South Florida, New Orleans, large parts of Manhattan, and much of the land area of the Netherlands and Bangladesh.

Though I have many doubts about the wisdom of expanding nuclear power, I agree with those who advocate trying to solve its problems rather than dismissing the technology out of hand. The emissions reductions required to stabilize climate are so huge that no reasonable option should be rejected without careful study.

Currently, more than 600 coal-fired electric plants produce 36% of U.S. CO2 emissions and nearly 10% of total global emissions. According to the Energy Department, power producers have about 150 new coal-fired plants on the drawing board. Improvements in energy efficiency and more wind turbines could substitute for some of these plants. After a few more years of research, it may be possible to avoid quite a few coal plants by installing photovoltaic panels or film on many roofs. The CO2 from new coal-fired plants could be sequestered in geologic repositories, but this is a very expensive technology that would require several decades to develop on a massive scale. Nuclear power may be the only technology that can take the place of many of the planned coal units in the near term and provide the base-load power required when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/government/84/8434gov3.html

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Luddite]
    #8296989 -

Here's an interesting article about coal.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/86/8611cover.html

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. [Re: Luddite]
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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 03:11 AM)

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8297151 -

I too am a fervent supporter of nuclear power. I can understand many people's reluctance in the wake of Chernobyl, but it's really the only feasible replacement for fossil fuels. Wind and solar power are great and should be used, but they can only replace a small(ie, single digit) percentage of our energy needs. Biofuels have their place, particularly ethanol derived from cellulose, but they've been way overhyped and the current policies towards it(subsidies for corn growers) are counterproductive- producing ethanol from corn requires more energy expenditure than it produces, it raises the price of grains, and it contributes to deforestation. Producing ethanol from biological waste(plant stalks for instance) is promising but here too it will never fill our entire energy needs.

Of course we also have to reduce our energy expenditures. Cars need to have higher fuel efficiency standards and we need to seriously promote public transportation. We have to get used to the idea that energy is not an infinite resource that can be wasted.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8297276 -

> because its a lot easier to contain its form of polution

Yes, containing something for a few million years is much easier than ... oh, never mind.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Seuss]
    #8297376 -

Nuclear power is irrefutably the safest form of power available. It has been perfected in the CANDU design, which can use natural, unenriched uranium as fuel (and enrichment is normally the most damaging, polluting part of the process). They can use reprocessed fuel. It is the most promising design for supporting the rapid industrialization I so hate.


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. [Re: Minstrel]
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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 03:11 AM)

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: Seuss]
    #8297717 -

Seuss said:
> because its a lot easier to contain its form of polution

Yes, containing something for a few million years is much easier than ... oh, never mind.



As long as its stored properly I don't think there's much trouble. Construct a site that is self containing and store that shit.

I'm not well versed on the waste or the potential problems, but, speaking from ignorance here, I don't see why it can't and shouldn't be done.

Additionally I've heard it said that a large proportion of the costs of nuclear power are the regulatory requirements and fees. Given that these are artificial barriers, and given that they're not essential, perhaps the cost will be cheaper eventually? We'll see, and maybe these premises are false, but no reason to write it off.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: johnm214]
    #8298610 -

I am disappointed that there aren't more people advocating the use of solar energy....

It to me seems to be the safest, cleanest, and most efficient form of energy.

If we are serious about the survival of our race, we need to further research and develop solar energy technologies.

:sun::sun::sun::sun::sun::sun::sun::sun::sun::sun:


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: SoY]
    #8298653 -

If we could couple biological systems to make self replicating media for panels, that would be nice. Something that takes energy from the sun, creates a high energy metabolite, and then we use that metabolite to power a redox cell or something.

But my understanding is that solar is very limited in terms of practical placement and isn't really cost effective compared to other options.

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: johnm214]
    #8298725 -

Quote:
If we could couple biological systems to make self replicating media for panels, that would be nice. Something that takes energy from the sun, creates a high energy metabolite, and then we use that metabolite to power a redox cell or something.



Very interesting! :smile:

Quote:
But my understanding is that solar is very limited in terms of practical placement and isn't really cost effective compared to other options.



That is the purpose of R&D.  Lower the cost while increasing the efficiency.  Solar energy technologies that we implement now are not the most cost-effective.  But as new understandings/technologies arise, solar energy will prove to be the most beneficial and cost-effective for us, especially for the long haul.


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: johnm214]
    #8299708 -

> As long as its stored properly I don't think there's much trouble.

We can't even build a road to last ten years, why do we fool ourselves into thinking we can build a storage container/site that will last ten times longer than humans have been recording history?

Then look at where we are talking about putting this... in a salt bed created by tidal forces from an ancient sea. Where there was once water, there can be water again.

Back in the 80's, the USSR had it all figured out and decided to just pump their nuclear waste deep into the ground. One big explosion later, after massive amounts of radioactive steam and waste were blasted into the environment, they realized that it wasn't such a good idea.

Almost all forms of pollution are somewhat forgiving; nuclear waste is not. I would much rather see us poison ourselves slowly with fossil based fuel pollution than destroy ourselves forever with nuclear based pollution. People bitch about CO2 because it stays in the atmosphere for decades to centuries, but these same people don't bat an eye at nuclear waste, that lasts hundreds of thousands of years to millions of years, because- well, I suppose because it will be somebody elses problem or because they think we can safely ignore/store the pollution.

Finally, things you seldom hear... what is the maximum lifetime of nuclear reactor? If you guess around 30 years, then you are correct. (The couch "experts" will claim that technology will advance more than doubling the life of reactors... unfortunately, we can't really change the laws of physics.) Once the reactor is past it's lifetime, our only option is to cover it in lead/concrete, hope it doesn't start to leak, and wait for a few million years for it to cool down while we build another one. Oh, and these aren't cheap to build by any stretch of the imagination.

Fission based energy as a replacement for fossil fuel based energy is a red herring.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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. [Re: Seuss]
    #8300114 -

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 03:11 AM)

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. [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8300137 -

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 03:11 AM)

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8300354 -

Quote:
supernovasky said:
Furthermore, I feel that within the next few hundred years, we will have enough technology to blast them into space without worrying about the waste falling back to earth or the energy it would take to blast them into space. This could happen with a space elevator.



You come off as a progressive person, yet you exhibit just as much irresponsibility with your hypocritical stance on nuclear waste as the greedy, short-term thinkers that have gotten us this far down the road to ruin....

I normally enjoy your posts and I hope you will see the error of your ways.


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: SoY]
    #8300453 -

There is no reason to build more nuclear power plants and generate more hazardous, lingering waste when we have access to a source of energy that has fueled the life on our planet for billions of years, and will continue to for billions more.

We should take the enormous sums of money that would be spent on reactors and containment sites and invest in the research and development of smaller, more efficient solar cell technology, and then implement them on a large scale.

It is illogical to go through the effort of harvesting, refining and burning nuclear material, then spending ungodly resources to contain such dangerous waste for a period of time longer than our likely existence on this planet when there is an astronomical source of energy right above us that we fail to fully utilize.

It is comparable to the farmer procuring water for his crops. He can take advantage of naturally occurring rain coupled with irrigation technology, or he can produce H2O from various chemical processes in his basement lab, using resources to create resources while not fully utilizing the otherwise wasted natural energy.

There is a better analogy that escapes me at the moment. The point is, it is more efficient to harvest and use "cost-free" (obviously I know there would be some financial costs for initial implementation and periodic maintenance of the panels) and otherwise wasted energy than it is to use resources to create resources....

...Especially when you add the deadly, everlasting, toxic waste variable!
[/rant]


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

Edited by SoY (04/18/08 12:37 PM)

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. [Re: SoY]
    #8300460 -

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 03:11 AM)

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8300473 -

Quote:
Good news for both of our positions, though, is that a recent study showed that wind power will possibly be the best for us in the future. It is VERY cheap and current technologies make it an efficient power source.



:thumbup:

I guess what I get so angry about is that we do not take advantage of the naturally-occurring, and otherwise wasted energy-producing phenomenon nearly as much as we should.


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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. [Re: SoY]
    #8300524 -

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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 03:11 AM)

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Re: Heretical Position On Nuclear Power [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #8300857 -

Fusion power is really the only hope. The enormous energy needs cannot possibly be met by wind and solar, each of which consume an enormous amount of raw space and neither of which is universally available. Geothermal is a real deal. Every house can tap that on it's own footprint but the expense is great. And what about underground warming? Just kidding. What about the impact on the earth's albedo of all those solar panels, not to mention the effect on wind patterns from all those windmills? And all those chopped to bits spotted owls off the Nantucket (Kennedy) Coast. What about them? And the sterilized striped bass.


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