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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him
#7868432 - 01/12/08 09:22 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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My old friend since 1968 recently went on a retreat and found the use of prerecorded swami talks and the lack of any live dharma discourse to be very disconcerting.
Note, My old friend took a psychology master's degree in the '70's' focussed on abhidhamma, so we both have been into it for a while, you could say.
this is a slightly edited reply I sent him:
I think the whole ananda bodhi thing spoiled it for all of us with respect to the entertainment-cum-learning aspect to dharma retreats. those days are gone, he was a very charismatic teacher and leader. the retreats now have to be seen as opportunities to do your thing against a fixed regime for a fixed extent of time for a fixed fee. this has very little entertainment benefit, and, in that way, these retreats more closely approximate what goes on in buddhist lands when people spend some time in a monastery, except with a huge cultural context surgically removed . I am not attracted to it. I guess I missed those opportunities with ananda bodhi, though LXXXX was a hoot - different yet less of an entertainer! at this point in my spiritual quest, I consider the dryest form of ahbhidhamma to be the measure of all things valuable, and if a worldview does not tangle nicely with the ideas of citta, and stream (of consciousness) I skip the whole thing. (the linkage between citta is association, either co-temporal association, happenning together in a gestalt, or simmilarity association, in which motifs can be found as linkage between citta) thankfully most philosophies focus in limited ways on archetypes which work for me as associative memory motifs and that is right up my alley with citta (as far as memory models go) - stream of consciousness being sensory and memory based (and memory being one of the senses, one that operates in resonance to sensory stimuli - including the stimuli from memory which is why it is actually a sense - the sense of memory) sensory stimuli are like the incoming or get sense, and memory stimuli are like the outgoing or put sense, but both mix in the NOW sense which is where we abide. and for me all the core ideas of buddhism relate to the stream, and to modulating attitude (the PUTS) by practice so that the stream flows most beautifully. the attitude being memory puts that get associated with stimuli and which are prone to create their own cascade of citta including action facial and body postures. also the practice relates to letting go so that this mixed stream process can be viewed and reviewed and actually glimpsed while happenning as well. and i guess that is where the idea of retreat comes in, and I like to do it as much as possible, deep and shallow, no regrets
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.



Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: redgreenvines]
#7868457 - 01/12/08 09:30 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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i love you, when is your book coming out.
-------------------- You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: truekimbo2]
#7869530 - 01/12/08 03:52 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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thanks for the acceptance trukimbo2 I guess the message was a bit steeped for the general public
the book (what book) is delayed for the time being... I might need to write it under a pseudonym too many people know me as redgreenvines...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: redgreenvines]
#7869902 - 01/12/08 05:24 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Icelanders advice is, "never retreat".
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: Icelander]
#7870044 - 01/12/08 05:54 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Why not re-treat?
I always eat two desserts!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: Diploid]
#7870440 - 01/12/08 07:17 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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heavy
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: redgreenvines]
#7870604 - 01/12/08 07:49 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Wow, I guess satsang is about the sangha more than the teacher, but videos?...
I've been digging the advaita-style teachings of Papaji and his student Mooji, J Krishnamurti, and Adyashanti.
But I found this article to be "enlightening"...
The Dangers of Pseudo-advaita by Aziz on the proliferation of "unqualified" Satsang Service Providers
We would like to express our concern regarding the recent phenomenon of "satsang-culture" which in our opinion has impoverished seriously the Original Spirit of Advaita. These days many individuals, who have very little or no knowledge at all about the Process of Awakening, feel qualified to give satsang and lead other souls on the Path. Enlightenment has become very cheap these days. Nobody actually really knows what is the meaning of this term as it virtually means everything and nothing. Nowadays, it is sufficient to say "I am awakened" in order to give satsang.
Because of the unverifiable nature of Enlightenment, this term has been much manipulated. Satsang has been Americanised. In an average satsang-gathering everybody is laughing, showing signs of euphoric and unauthentic joy, while the teacher tries to look like he or she is in bliss. Just like a TV show. Very few actually meditate. Why meditate if we are already all awakened?
But is this really Advaita? Is Advaita a poor repetition of a several slogans like "There is nobody there," "You are That," "You are already awakened" or "There is no Path," etc? Has this anything to do with teaching of great masters like N. Maharaj or R. Maharshi? Ramana sat in caves for 20 years before he could be really complete. In his presence disciples had to meditate for months and years before they could receive from him the glimpse of the Self.
It is true that New Millennium is a time of global awakening. But this awakening is mostly partial and relative to the level of most people's unconsciousness. It was Jesus who said that there would be a time when many false teachers will teach in the name of Light. It seems to be happening now. Many of these teachers are not necessarily "bad people" but simply unqualified and lost, in truth. They have believed too quickly in the thought "I am now ready to teach!"
It seems that the pauperisation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their "awakening." It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say "you are already awakened." This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases it was neither permanent nor the final state.
An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually confirmed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine "What is Enlightenment?" which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity. By the endless investigation into states of all possible masters, and not being able to come to any true conclusion, he has been just confusing his students. The only thing which at the end remains clear from his seemingly "sincere" efforts to find clarity is that nobody has the least idea "What Enlightenment Is!"
It is not our intention to suggest that nobody reaches Enlightenment. We just wish to make it clear that Complete Enlightenment and Understanding of its nature is still an extremely rare phenomenon on the planet earth, which is a plane of low evolution. And equally important, we wish to emphasize that a partial or premature experience of awakening does not qualify one at all to take a role of a Self-realised being.
Enlightenment is not so cheap. Many seekers seem to be unaware of a very simple fact that there are actually many levels of Self-realisation. There is an enormous difference between initial awakening and the actual State of Enlightenment. But who cares? Most seekers would not bother to study these matters, for in their case there is really "nobody there" - just a collective seeker's mind. And most teachers would refuse to enquire into the true nature of Enlightenment because they already have a hidden doubt and deep fear concerning the validity of their own attainment.
We would like to suggest not to rush too fast with announcing oneself "awakened," and to rush even less with the idea of giving satsang. In Zen tradition one had to wait 10 to 20 years after Enlightenment before one could guide others. These days we hear about individuals who give satsang the next day after their uncertain awakening!
We would like to clarify, for the sake of general knowledge, that there are actually several levels of expansion beyond the mind. There are three basic types of Inner Expansion: 1) Awakening to Pure Awareness (the State of Presence behind the mind). 2) Awakening to the Absolute State (unity with the unmanifested). 3) Awakening of the Heart (expansion into the Divine).
In each of these levels there are three stages: Shift into a state, Stabilisation and Integration. For instance, many satsang-teachers do not experience the same state outside of teaching. This is because they are not established permanently in the state they have attained. For that reason, they can have a deep state during satasng, but when they leave the satsang-room, they return back to ordinary consciousness. In such a case only conscious cultivation of the particular state can allow one to establish it permanently. However, if one does not believe in actual process of awakening, how can one consciously cultivate anything? One does not even know that one is in a State. Here we see the importance of correct understanding. If one just follows in a dogmatic and unimaginative way the Advaita idea that "I am already That," how can one cultivate anything?
We recommend to all students and teachers of Advaita to be more critical. Follow Advaita if you wish but know that Reality is simply much more rich than any linear philosophy, Advaita included. The Practical Advaita and the Theoretical Advaita are very different. In the Theoretical Advaita, the Self is the only reality, there is no Path and we are all already awakened. But Practical Advaita knows that there is a long way to go before the truth of these statements can become our living truth.
We would like also to create a few practical anti-pseudo-advaita statements: "You are not awakened unless you awaken!" "You are not That, unless you reach unity with Universal I AM!" "There is no Path but only for those who Completed it!" "There is nobody here, but only when somebody has dissolved!" Until that time you are simply a suffering somebody who only tries to believe in being no one or entertains oneself by giving "satsang."
We have request to all those who experience any type of awakening: PLEASE, THINK TWICE BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO GIVE SATSANG and HONESTLY COMTEMPLATE WHAT ARE YOUR TRUE MOTIVES BEHIND THE DESIRE TO TEACH. Perhaps giving Satsang is not really necessary?
Blessings to Seekers of Truth and Clarity who have the courage to renounce the False. Further to this, also from Aziz . . .
Student: Are all enlightened beings in the same state?
Aziz: In most cases, those who announce their Enlightenment represent only a certain type of Self-realisation. Most often they represent the realisation of pure awareness. And even among them not all are stabilised in this experience. Not to be established in the State of Presence means that one is still losing it from time to time. In Zen, they say that after Enlightenment, twenty years practice is required! It is because, in their understanding, Enlightenment initially means to see one's true nature; and then one has to practice hard not to lose it. There is a level called 'beyond practice' where the state is spontaneously and permanently present, but it is not easy to reach. The problem with the popular view concerning 'sudden Enlightenment' is that its interpretation is rather naïve. This idea can be very misleading because many seekers assume Enlightenment is a sudden, complete and permanent shift of perception. They think that after Enlightenment everything suddenly changes and one is free from problems; that one is continuously happy and lives in bliss. But this is not true. Even those who are considered the greatest masters had to take many steps in their evolution towards completion. In most cases, a master reaches complete Enlightenment in old age.
Student: So how come certain teachers who claim to be enlightened don't know that they deceive themselves?
Aziz: First of all, they don't necessarily deceive themselves. They've possibly experienced a shift into pure awareness, and it is an enlightened state. The only question is whether it is the Final Enlightenment and whether they possess the complete knowledge about the awakening process.
You see, it is a very subtle area. It does not work in such a way that you become enlightened and then you know everything. You may know nothing. When you become suddenly enlightened, it is similar to being transported, in one instant, in your sleep, to the top of Mount Everest. And you say: 'Oh, I'm so high but how did I get here? What am I doing here, actually?' You don't understand your situation yet, for your intelligence has not caught up with the experience. You must see that if there is no intelligence, any experience is meaningless. It is like an enlightened cow  the cow may become a Buddha, but her mind is not capable either of understanding or appreciating the gift of Freedom.
We are in the process of a multidimensional evolution. Even if one has experienced a certain shift of consciousness, it takes years for such a person to understand his or her state and much longer to be able to teach. It is not enough to be enlightened in order to teach. A spiritual master has to understand the process of awakening. It is a very complex process.
It is not just to be there, hiding oneself behind the Guru-image and projecting energy onto seekers. Teaching is a responsibility and most teachers, because of their egos, want to become masters as quick as possible. They have some spiritual shift and immediately they start to give Satsang! It is ridiculous what is happening on the spiritual scene.
It is not to judge. It is not to walk around saying: 'this man is enlightened' and 'this one is not enlightened.' Just know that the term Enlightenment designates many stages and possibilities of awakening, and not everyone who awakens is completely enlightened. Use your sensitivity and discriminative wisdom in order to feel what level of Enlightenment the teacher represents and if you wish to choose him or her for a spiritual guide.
It is irrelevant for you whether a particular master is enlightened or not. It is their problem. It is not your life, it is theirs. The question is: how can such a teacher help you? What is important is whether he can give you a teaching that leads you straight to the Self. There are many pseudo-gurus who do not have any real understanding of the awakening process; they tell their followers, 'just stick around and everything will happen.' A real master never over-emphasises his own presence but is humble and hidden behind the light of Truth.
Do you understand? That is the point. If a spiritual teacher can help you, see this as an opportunity to grow, until the point where perhaps you may go beyond. I have personally met many masters which from my present perspective were not in a complete state. But still I have learnt from them and I am grateful because they shared their truth as much as they could.
Next, it is not necessary to be completely enlightened. Complete Enlightenment is the destiny of very few Souls. What an average person, an average seeker, needs to awaken to is a certain relatively permanent experience of the I Am, and the ability to come back to this experience at any time  to have this inner home. Such a person does not need to reach the Absolute State. Enlightenment is not the only purpose of life. You want to live life, you want to be happy, you wish to reach a certain essential amount of emotional fulfillment, you want to adventure in life, to express your creativity. If the purpose of life was only Enlightenment, this universe would not be created.
Yes…there are many elements. You are multidimensional and you need to have in your perspective the vision of your blueprint, your destiny and your completion. You are heading towards the point in your experience of the inner and the outer where you simply feel complete and done with this dimension.
Somebody can be enlightened and be an asshole, while someone else may be only partially connected to I Am but be a wonderful person. Enlightenment doesn't necessarily make you a better person. It gives you a foundation of inner peace, a continuity of awareness, and a depth of Being. But if the Heart is not awakened, the ego may still be arrogant. Apart from awakening, the Soul needs to still evolve emotionally, mentally and in many different areas.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: redgreenvines]
#7870674 - 01/12/08 08:03 PM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: heavy
Hey everyone, I get it. Red you are a fungi.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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felix4life
Sky
Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 467
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: Icelander]
#7872032 - 01/13/08 01:17 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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I have been listening to Adyashanti, Tolle, Gangaji, Papaji, Douglas Harding recordings while I go for walks. The trees are my satsang 
No need for gurus, just awaken and then the real work begins. The work is consciously seeing all aspects of yourself that are in contradiction to your nature and transforming them through acceptance. This usually takes a while
Edited by felix4life (01/13/08 01:22 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: felix4life]
#7872139 - 01/13/08 01:48 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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middleman, cohen would have failed anyway. getting more supporters or students from the west, is tangled up in spiritualized materialism. this foible is not just a phenomenon of modernity.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: Middleman]
#7872275 - 01/13/08 03:02 AM (16 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
But if the Heart is not awakened, the ego may still be arrogant.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: when an old friend complained to me how shallow the last retreat was for him [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7872474 - 01/13/08 06:57 AM (16 years, 19 days ago) |
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somehow this view of anatomy does not gibe with mine - too many parts (of the self) subject to a variance in consciousness states; the poetry of it describes what's wrong with many people, but resolving something useful from that poetry wrt enlightenment is difficult.
what I mean is that head and heart are qualities of mind here, not actual anatomical objects, yet the squirrelly imposters will transmute the argument into one about chakkras and then take your money.
this is not to say that chakkras mean nothing, the body means a lot, and chakkras are a big part of yoga, and the mind-body connection, but they are not the key to enlightenment, except in the way that people are ignoring their body - which is largely true. (and would that not be another argument altogether from separating ego and heart out of an integrated self/consciousness-stream?)
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