Home | Community | Message Board


MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Salvia, Sublime, Terrence McKenna

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Culture is not your friend
    #1703756 - 07/10/03 09:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Terrance McKenna expressed something which I've felt for awhile now, but couldn't really explain. Read below.....

http://www.salvia-divinorum-scotland.co.uk/quotes/mckenna/cultureisnotyourfriend.htm


Ideology is poisonous. It's not that there are good ideologies and bad ideologies -- ALL ideology is poisonous. Because to have an ideological position assumes that you understand the nature of reality. How likely is that? How likely is that? And, in the Twentieth Century, if we have not learned the bankruptcy of ideology, then I don't know what it would take. We have on the Right the stunning example of German National Socialism. We have on the Left the stunning example of Soviet Communism. And then all the blathering and wasted time and... crap that went on in all the spectrum in between.

This ties into a larger issue which I'm interested in -- and this is another way of saying "ideology is bankrupt" -- [it] is, Culture Is Not Your Friend. Culture is not your friend, no matter what your culture is. And this is sort of not a Politically Correct thing to say, because in the present ambience, (sort of, those who haven't gotten the word) there's a lot of attention to recovering our ethnic roots and to expressing our unique ethnicity, and so forth and so on -- I think that's the beginning of understanding. But all terms that stress ethnicity are words applied to groups of people. Have you ever noticed that? Have you ever noticed that you're not a group of people, you're a person? So you may be "Jewish", you may be "Black", you may be this, you may be that but there is no obligation to take upon yourself the generalized quality of these things, because the generalized qualities belong to thousands of people examined at a time. If you misunderstand that you become a caricature. You act out your ethnicity as a caricature.

So culture is not your friend, ideology is not your friend... Who's your friend? Well, to my mind, the felt presence of immediate experience is the surest dimension, the surest guide that you can possibly have. The felt presence of immediate experience. Feeling is primary. All rationalization and intellectualization and analysis is secondary, and comes out of culture. No matter what your culture is, it has answers. Cultures thinks up answers. So a child asks its mother a question, like, "Where do we go when we die?" or, "Why does Daddy go to work?" Cultural answers are always provided, but nobody knows the real answers to these questions -- that's outside of culture. So coming to terms and fully expressing your culture is like a stage in development. And then beyond that lies the aspiration of the felt presence of immediate experience, and its implications. It's a very hard thing to deal with and to do when you are poisoned with ideology. And ideologies are very difficult to deconstruct and rid yourself of through a simple talking therapy of some sort, through simply trying to work it out. The best antidote for ideology is to raise the intensity of the felt presence of experience to such excruciating levels that it simply vaporizes ideological illusion. And this is what psychedelics are for, I think. And it also explains (if you've ever wondered) the incredible phobia of these things on the part of the establishment, the incredibly deep alarm that these things trigger in people.

You know, "Tim Leary once said of LSD, it's "a compound that occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who don't take it." ...That's how powerful these things are! And the reason is, they are a direct challenge to the myth of the tribe - whatever the myth is: Fascist, Democrat, Socialist, Communist -- everybody can get together on the idea that psychedelics are somehow dangerous and antisocial and pose some kind of threat to the body politic. That's because all these ideologies, from the psychedelic point of view, are seen in all their limitations and foolishness, and their historical assumptions and their naivet? writ large across them. Ideology is a fool's game. Or it's a scoundrel's game. Because scoundrels use ideology to control fools. And nobody wants to be caught in that situation.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Twirling]
    #1703777 - 07/10/03 09:20 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Hell yeah, that was taken from his talk on the video "True Hallucinations", a straight 2 hour long 'lecture'.

Terence McKenna looks about as insane as his voice sounds. Viewing him talking, you get the impression that he is a vessel for other-wordly energies, whatever they may be. When you watch him talk he will often get this look in his eyes in which it looks like he is surrenduring himself to it and letting it's voice come through him. Kinda makes ya wonder... :crazy:   


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Adamist]
    #1703794 - 07/10/03 09:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm gonna have to order that video. I downloaded "Tree of Knowledge" and I found it to be very interesting. I love the way he talks and his ability to spontaneously crack a joke.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Twirling]
    #1703811 - 07/10/03 09:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Terence McKenna blew my mind (especially with his Timewave Zero theory and DMT experiences), whether his ideas are far fetched or not isn't the issue, it's about letting your mind off that cultural leash and allowing yourself to think independent and anew.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEffedS
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/15/02
Posts: 7,364
Loc: Daylight Slavings
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Twirling]
    #1703814 - 07/10/03 09:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Great post!

Glad to see people on the right path. :wink:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Twirling]
    #1704021 - 07/10/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

is that not in itself an ideology?

do you not think that the nature of "culture" or the need for a social group is necessary? some sort of common identification amongst individuals? Is what you say just an extension of an ideology of the status quo of society/culture? i think to oppose such a force is to play with an inferno... why say that culture is not our friend? I might say our culture now is not really friendly... but to say Culture is not my friend at all... then what would we have to look forward to as a species? ought we to become mushrooms?

isnt this idea about culture not being a friend an ideaology in itself?

i like mikes description of words and definitions. we give definition to these things we think of. culture can refer to almost an endless ammount of things... you may be only pairing certain "linear" thoughts of our time. whats the "morel" of the story? be sublime?


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1704048 - 07/10/03 10:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Nice, thanks for posting that Twirling. 

Ideology is a fool's game. Or it's a scoundrel's game. Because scoundrels use ideology to control fools. And nobody wants to be caught in that situation.

:thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Grav]
    #1704072 - 07/10/03 10:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i dont understand... am i missing something lol? or are you replying to twirling?


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1704100 - 07/10/03 11:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yea :smile: sorry  quick reply is so much more QUICK


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1704115 - 07/10/03 11:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
is that not in itself an ideology?




Well, the initial contemplation, understanding, and putting into action of the idea isn't, but it becomes such once people start following it. That's the irony of the "psychedelic culture". It's a culture, based in part, on the idea of an anti-culture. But the point McKenna is making in that piece is that you can't rely on a culture for your own identity. Don't depend on culture for answers.

It's not saying reject society and live in a cave, but more that who you are is more than what is defined by society. Yes, it can become an ideology in itself. Its similar to the way people brag about ego loss in a superiority, domination kind of way, which contradicts what the person would be bragging about in the first place. Unless you?re a hermit, you?re going to end up relying on someone else in someway. However, the significance of what he?s saying is that the information that we get from our culture is learned, and not necessarily true.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFaaip_De_Oiad
as above, so below
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 1,947
Loc: Malice, Tx
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Grav]
    #1704120 - 07/10/03 11:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

EXCELLENT point Zero, we as humans NEED something to identify with. If we didn't have them many of us would never feel like we belong anywhere. (is this what you mean Zero?) and of course this is like the old dumb paradox about the only rule being that THERE ARE NO RULES!!! it's alot like that, believing that there should be no ideologies is an ideology in itself.

But I do see McKenna's point, that these "ideologies" only tear us as humans apart, but maybe i'm just full of Dr. Pepper and I'm completely missing the point here, anyone?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1704441 - 07/11/03 01:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Faaip - yeah man it is. well one of them! im glad you replied faaip.


------

Twirling. thanks for clearing that up, (you too grav :wink: ). i think its important to understand the dynamics of that. I think it helps us "identify" lol. I think thats a good point, our idealogies, our dogmas contradict the fact of being us being human in the first place. maybe we are all one in the same kind of idea?

but its important to not let these things get in the way. but yet we must have them to function.... for communication. it just seems that now adays people are mixing them up.... doing what they want. manipulating functions of society for their nice little collection bucket.

buy your sins back, give us indulgences with money, and we shall return you to god. stand for the pledge cause it shows respect for your country.

all these limiting thoughts? these "actions" that support idealogies... . guess this is where you were going? yeah those are bad. lol i agree.


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1704495 - 07/11/03 01:37 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm, and ideology where culture is the enemy. Funny. Fighting something which we construct and is embodied within us. Note that the article structures culture as though it were separate.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1704531 - 07/11/03 02:00 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i dont think its seperate either... if thats what you were saying. which is the prime motive for my original post in this thread....
---------
culture is not really seperate... i know some people like to think of it is... but its never been seperate... not as long as we have been on this earth. painting deer and buffalo on cave walls? that was the beginning of our culture... i think of it just as it is. a culture of our society. i think that in some respects our society/culture alienates a lot of people now adays or at least, because of the govt or consumerism, the projection of our culture is something plastic. not really here. I mean its so obvious on tv. To confide in the social stigmas, the categories of our times is to be a part of what i think is a bad state of "culture", to me what i see is a bad mess we have gotten into.

but that brings us back to the nature of the thread. how ideologies are bad, how they tend to seperate us. But i think that its not so much idealogies in themselves, but how they are constructed, how they are initiated into our society. cause isnt our society/culture an accumulation of our idelogies?


i dont agree with the topic. cause i dont think its true. but i see from twirlings response that i have to see past that... and see what he said about ideologies. it seems that he has framed ideologies around our culture and is commenting upon them... my interpretation anyway


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1704814 - 07/11/03 03:36 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think the 'culture' people speak of IS NOT inherently part of us. BUT I do think that 'culture', as the immediate perceptions of the social order, are inescapable when your dealing with large groups of people. The most important part of zero's point was that once people start to value themselves based on cultural concepts then you become the petty plaything of impersonal objects.

Shrooms help a person 'float above' his normal context by putting him into the context the drug provides. But, this does'nt mean the drug has this inevitable effect, no. It just means your going to the world of the shroom and that things are probably going to be wierd looking from the outside in.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Faaip_De_Oiad]
    #1704850 - 07/11/03 03:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"we as humans NEED something to identify with."

lets identify with life as a human being on Earth in this nightmarish situation we have created


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (07/11/03 03:51 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Strumpling]
    #1704870 - 07/11/03 03:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

ooo. howabout the situation we DIDNT create? Like the fact that we're in the middle of nowhere, shooting around a large ball of fire hoping that the universe is intelligent and will save us.

Not to mention im expecting a big rock to hit us any day now...


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: David_Scape]
    #1705735 - 07/11/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Zero7a1 is right, anti-ideology is still ideology. so what we need is an ideology which doesn't base decisions on "traditon", something that seeks to balance the oscilation between nazi's and commies.... oh wait, that's what LIBERALISM is.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelateralus
member
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 126
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: Malachi]
    #1706218 - 07/11/03 04:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Culture and everything in it is an ideology. I heared him say in one of his lectures "ideologies kill" referring to the 'heavens gate' cult. I think he's right, look at institutionalized religion.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Culture is not your friend [Re: lateralus]
    #1706310 - 07/11/03 04:58 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

malachi: "anti-ideology is still ideology"

no it is not. you're thinking of it all wrong. True anti-ideology is the abscence of ideology, and the absence of ideology is NOT another form of ideology. Just like the absence of rules is not another rule, its emptiness versus form.



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Salvia, Sublime, Terrence McKenna

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Social/Cultural Change
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 1,763 27 04/13/05 01:22 AM
by Sclorch
* The two main cultures of the world FrenchSocialist 1,223 3 12/15/06 06:27 PM
by redtailedhawk
* War, genocide, starvation. Are these our friends?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Icelander 6,184 87 02/28/08 10:19 AM
by Boots
* Cultural Convention and The Matrix ekomstop 1,319 16 04/21/04 01:52 AM
by Jellric
* How did culture arise? And where is it taking us?
( 1 2 all )
Cognitive_Shift 1,783 28 04/26/09 06:46 PM
by Poid
* Talking to a friend dying of cancer
( 1 2 3 all )
supernovasky 2,721 47 01/12/09 04:13 AM
by fireworks_god
* Why do we exist? How? - A compilation of theories and ideology
( 1 2 3 all )
PerfectChaos 3,201 50 07/22/05 02:22 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* A Gifting Culture
( 1 2 3 all )
Icelander 2,455 51 06/01/05 05:21 PM
by Swami

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
1,713 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
The Spore Depot
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.084 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.