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Question about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting
    #7826361 -

This question is about maintaining production quality

when you make a track you need to do some normalizing/compressing/limiting to create volumes comparable with bought audio cd's. Now my qustion is: when do you add reverb, before compressing/normalizing, or after? What gives best results?

I was just thinking about this but don't have the time to try it right now so I would like to see some opinions:thumbup:

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Re: Qeuation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: stefan]
    #7826372 -

I usually add compression to an individual instrument or vocal track before adding reverb and/or delay.

Normalization is usually for the final mix. Reverb and delay are usually not applied to mixes.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Middleman]
    #7826383 -

always a good answer from you, thanks :thumbup:

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: stefan]
    #7826821 -

If you have reason you can mess around and expirement with different chains of effects, and layering them in ways to create unique sounding effect's. Usually I'll use a master compressor to keep things in check overall, and if need be compress each instrument.


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∞
I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: snoot]
    #7827321 -

I like to think of reverb as a room (or hall/stadium/bathroom), and you want to keep that room only filled with sound.
I have never been a fan of putting reverb effects on individual tracks... granted sometimes your software gives you no choice, but if you cant isolate the reverb with it, then you probably arent going to get CD quality with it.
what I always do is create a track that is just the reverb... if you have multiple reverbs, then multiple tracks for it... then route the output of your tracks (that you want reverb on) to an inboard or outboard reverb unit and the output of that reverb unit into its own track.
for example: you want the drum kit to all run through an XL plate verb to get that 80's kit feel... dont put that same plate on each individual track, because that is creating like 6 different rooms.... the frequencies/timbre and everything should be summed together and ran through one logarithmic equation because they effect each other that way in an acoustic/real sense.
then the verb should only be compressed through mastering, IMO.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828274 -

A different room for each track is desirable in a mix.

Plate on the drums, spring on the guitar, none on the bass and hall on the vocal for example.

Putting verb on a final mix makes it muddy, imo...

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Re: Question about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: stefan]
    #7828509 -

Let's see, the standard procedure is:

Recording at good enough levels that you won't need normalization, IF you need to change the dynamic behaviour of the instrument you'd compress it, but careful because 90% of the times novice mixers compress too much -just a slight touch is usually enough, 3dB is a LOT in actual sonic terms-. Sometimes compression can and is used to colour the sound, specially in low-ranged instruments and heavy guitars, but good miking technique is always better. You wanna start with as good a sound as possible, always!

I'm not getting into pre or post compression EQ because that's a world into itself.

And finally, AFTER panning and volume setting you'd put on the necessary reverb to create a realistic or artistically interesting acoustic sensation.

That being said, I've often created signal flows that used a signal-->gate-->reverb-->EQ-->compressor--> reverb-->EQ to create "strange" sounds (I could upload that track if you want me to)

About limiting, compression and normalizing, let's see:

-normalization is used to set the signal to an appropriate level for the mixing process, BUT if doesn't take advantage of the full signal/noise ratio we have in current studio equipment, so it should be kept to a minimum.
-Compression is used to reduce the dynamic range of any given signal so we can make it "fit" into our mix so to speak, but since it colors the sound a LOT it is also used as a sort of EQ and/or to give "punch" to a given instrument.
-Limiting is used to limit the dynamic range of a signal, so that it will NEVER exceed the threshold and is mostly applied at mastering, so it is intended NOT to colour the sound. It gives a more transparent compression and is also designed to have a very very fast release to evade the "pumping" effect in the final mix and bring said mix to a commercial level of output, at the cost of limited dynamic range.

So usually normalizing is used for single tracks which were badly recorded, compression to control instruments or bring out some of their characteristics by hiding others (compression+makeup gain) and limiting to make the mix "hot".

And now answering your question :grin: only used compression after a reverb or any other time effect for that matter if you want it to be compressed too, which is not usually the case.

And always remember, reverb is ALWAYS a stereo effect, and compression usually a mono effect. You wouldn't believe how many people I've had to give a bad mark in a signal flow test because of mono reverbs.


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:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Qeuation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Middleman]
    #7828521 -

Middleman said:
Reverb and delay are usually not applied to mixes.


Actually applying reverb is common practice in mastering. Depending on the mix it can be as short as half a sec or even as long as 3 secs.

It is indeed harder to find delays applied in mastering, but it does happen, Seal's "crazy" being a perfect example of such use. It is used to bring out a more rhythmic feeling, but for the life of me I have no idea how to do it :shrug:


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:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Middleman]
    #7828586 -

I think you were reading my post wrong..... maybe I am reading yours wrong... IDk.
when I said that I have never been a fan of putting reverb on individual tracks, i meant actually inserting, through software, the chain of effects.
I would never put verb on an entire mix unless it was for film or some avant garde shit.
what I was talking about was having a stereo track for every type of reverb you are going to use, and have just the wet channel coming up on those tracks instead of routing the entire dry and wet mix through one channel.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828600 -

What you mean is an auxiliar buss with a reverb inserted in it, that's the standar way to do it indeed, because mixing with too many different reverbs creates a confusing acustic space :wink:


--------------------
:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828696 -

Quote:
You wouldn't believe how many people I've had to give a bad mark in a signal flow test because of mono reverbs.


so you teach some sort of audio class?
that is like one notch below lawyers and just slightly above serial pedophiles.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828773 -

YawningAnus said:
Quote:
You wouldn't believe how many people I've had to give a bad mark in a signal flow test because of mono reverbs.


so you teach some sort of audio class?
that is like one notch below lawyers and just slightly above serial pedophiles.


Yep, I was a supervisor at SAE Institute Madrid, and am now moving to Amsterdam's institute.

I spent most of my time working with this:

A SSL 4000 G+, awesome board.

Teaching is awesome man!!


--------------------
:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828858 -

also, verb doesnt have to always take a stereo input.
I run a true stereo PA, but only dual mono verbs/delays, which eventually comes out in stereo.... sounds fine.
also, I run just a little stereo coupled overeasy compression on my main outputs.

granted this is live sound, so it is a rather different beast, but it doesnt mean that those kids should get bad marks for saying mono verb and stereo comp.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #7828943 -

Colonel Kurtz Ph.D said:
YawningAnus said:
Quote:
You wouldn't believe how many people I've had to give a bad mark in a signal flow test because of mono reverbs.


so you teach some sort of audio class?
that is like one notch below lawyers and just slightly above serial pedophiles.


Yep, I was a supervisor at SAE Institute Madrid, and am now moving to Amsterdam's institute.

I spent most of my time working with this:

A SSL 4000 G+, awesome board.

Teaching is awesome man!!


I learned on an SSl and an Amek, both about that size... worked at some nice studios, worked on some ok albums, but in the end, there just is less and less money in it.
Live is the shit and keeps you on your toes.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828949 -

Thing is, they were doing a test in which we evaluate if they know what each effect is supposed to do.
Time effects are by definition used to simulate and/or an acoustic space, so they should be stereo. In actual live situations it doesn't have to be like that but man, if you have a SSL and 3 weeks to record a "single" I think it's fair to ask for a stereo image... this is a studio situation after all, and not was only the reverb in mono, everything was :shrug:

As you said live situations are a completely different beast, in 80% of situations I'd go all mono when live.
BTW I never meant to imply that reverb should have a stereo input, just output, sorry if I didn't explain myself clearly.


--------------------
:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7828960 -

I'd love to use a Neve at the school but alas no luck :sad:


--------------------
:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #7829009 -

im just glad to find out there is another audio professional on these boards.. instead of guys with fruity loops or some digi 002 thinking they are rick reuben.

so have you worked on any albums worth mentioning? I know that you are teaching, btu even at my old school they recorded some albums... like Shaq's album..... its atleast funny.

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7829068 -

:lol: Indeed.

Not yet, since I spend most of my time finishing my own album... and that's only when I don't have a shitload of work :sad:

I've done some live and mastering work for spanish bands you'll never heard about in your life (they're famous here tho), but I'm just starting... I've only been working in this for about a year, I used to do computer stuff prior to deciding on dedicating myself to music completely. I'm looking forward to move upwards in Amsterdam as far as production is concerned.

By Shaq you mean Shaquille O'Neal? Haha, gotta grab me a copy of that one.


--------------------
:whatwhat:

There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #7829133 -

Colonel Kurtz Ph.D said:
I'd love to use a Neve at the school but alas no luck :sad:


ameks are laid out almost completely opposite as the SSl's. mutes and engage buttons are swapped, HPF will be confused for the preamp..... shit like that.

I got a 32 channel yamaha, which really isnt as bad as it sounds, but guest engineers have so much trouble with the reversed mute and PFl buttons, plus the stereo buss button is right next to the mute button so you can accidentally hit it if you arent careful.

but we got some badass nexo's for mains and monitors and 30 band KT Eq's.... im sure being over in european places you use a lot of those.... fuckin pin 3 hot shit makes me :crankey:

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Re: Equation about: reverb, normalizing, compression, limiting [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #7830908 -

I'm away for a week, but I'm bookmarking this post!

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