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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Protest Against Religious Bigotry!
    #7552206 -

I object to any and all individuals or groups of people who insult, belittle, demean or mock THAT which is Sacred to other human beings. It is a form of hatred that is on a par with racial hatred and sexual orientation hatred. Hatred always is based in fear - we hate what we fear. Both are irrational.

Religious bigotry doesn't strike at mere physical appearances or social differences, nor does it strike at the psychobiological mechanisms that determine just what sexually arouses a person. These petty hatreds are aimed at the surface differences and psychchosexual behaviors of people. Really it is a matter of personal aesthetics that have been inordinately offended be feelings of aversion. Ignorance, arrested intellectual, emotional, social and moral developmental aspects can be discerned.

Religious bigotry doesn't settle its gaze on mere surface structures and behaviors. No, it attacks human beings at a more essential level, their right to Be. However, the kinds of individuals who attack others on the basis of their Way of Being do not actually Know others at the level they are attacking. The bigot in this case is attacking the thinking minds of other human beings while 'believing' that they are perceiving the essential nature of those people. That is because the bigots are so entirely identified with the contents of their own thinking minds that they do not understand that thoughts and by corollary, language, are merely reflective representations of Reality. In concrete terms, the bigot somehow confuses his own ideas about God, for God Itself. This is the old example of the finger pointing at the moon in Zen. Only the fool looks at the finger instead of the moon. Only the fool believes that written words are the Word or Logos.

Christians, Jews and Muslims - Peoples of the Book - are the worst culprits in this, but Jews at least are not geared towards world domination no matter what the antisemitic conspiracy paranoids believe. Orthodox Muslims are even more idolatrous about the Qu'ran than fundamentalist Christians are about the Bible. Muslims believe the very printed book of the Qu'ran is the Word of God in the sense that Catholics believe in the Transubstantial Bread and Wine as being the very Body and Blood of Iesus the Christ. George Orwell must have taken his "doublethink" from this contradiction.

I posit an Ultimate Reality, conventionally called God in English, is the Eternal Substratum of existence. This is a philosophical way of saying that God creates, but in a continuous manner, with space-time being 'externalized' from its Transcendental Source from every point in the space-time continuum. It is more like photons which appear out of 'nothing' in any cubic foot of deep space, than it is of a Divine Watchmaker who created the universe and withdrew. In other words, there is Eternality and there is spacio-temporality. The Buddhist say Nirvana and Samsara, Hindus say Purusha and Prakriti. All I have stated here is the obvious. We intuit Eternity and we perceive spacio-temporality. Sometimes, if one is very fortunate, one has a radical experience of Eternality. Just how this experience is rendered into language is tricky and always imperfect, and it is always colored by the human being to whom the experience occurred. Each person is unique and is comprised of a various number of psychological, emotional, socio-cultural overlapping selves.

So, I posit a second self-evident point: certain individuals have experiences of Ultimate Reality. Moreover, as I said, the idiosyncrasies of any given human being to whom an experience of Ultimate Reality has occurred, will inevitably express that experience in very idiosyncratic ways. There will nevertheless be commonalities with others of the same constitution and/or culture with whom the mediating symbols of language will resonate.

The nomadic tribesman of Muhammed's time, exposed to Jews and Catholic Christians as well as to their own Arabic myths and culture, eventually produced the Qu'ran. Iesus and His friends who came to share something of His vision, similarly passed down accounts and many documents were produced. A Bible was finally evolved from this.

Lastly, I posit this: it is not the content of books, which is only the recorded content of thoughts that matters metaphysically. What matters is the extent to which any writings are capable of guiding human beings to Be as Compassionate as they can Be. Wisdom is measured by one's capacity to Be Compassionate. As every sura of the Qu'ran begins: "In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate." That's it, no more should be read or said. That is The Way to Be. Similarly, "Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy might." And in case one does not quite get Who or What "the LORD thy God is," we have this: "God is love." If we took these three points from the Qu'ran, the Torah and the New Testament, and forgot everything else, we would approach the utter simplicity that is also the Truth of Enlightened Mind in Buddhism. It is Really...that...simple.

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7552592 -

good post.

I find that when I have to defend Scientology face to face with some bigot, that I find myself very shaken up, primarily because I can no longer be myself. Even though I am not a Scientologist, my actions and words instantly become a representative of it once my affiliation is known.
If they did not know how I felt about Scientology, they would see me goofing around and think "gee, there is some goofy douchebag over there", but after they know my stance on the subject, it becomes "hey look at that weirdo scientologist, those are some seriously fucked up people".

I do take solace in the fact that usually people who are bigots are so spiritually inept that they have to berrate others for their personal advancements in that field.

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7552595 -

Shit.. you're right. I hate those culprits. Fire ze missiles!!!


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7552705 -

Quote:
Wisdom is measured by one's capacity to Be Compassionate.


The older I become the truthier this seems. I view rational self-interest, to use objectivist terminology, as the symptom of a psychologically under-developed person. It seems that many people are selfish merely because they're not strong enough to be compassionate.

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #7552784 -

Regardless of my own evaluation of Scientology, I stand by our Constitutional right to practice whatever religion. Moreover, not every Scientologist is an ego-inflated primadonna actor any more than every would-be Kabbalist is some primadonna singer-songwriter. Disciplines and traditions are only as useful as the integrity of the beings in whose possession they are held. Thanks for responding.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7552819 -

Is it strength, or is it simply the result of Vision? I mean, once one has 'seen' how it Really is, one doesn't even have a real choice NOT to Be as Compassionate as one is capable of. I don't want to sound like a spiritual mercenary, but in 'casting one's bread upon the waters,' one seems to receive back more than what one has given out. Careful about becoming a light to others though, most people prefer the comfort of darkness and do not like to feel self-conscious (naked) in the presence of someone who is into total awareness - especially of themselves.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7553927 -

MushmanTheManic said:
The older I become the truthier this seems. I view rational self-interest, to use objectivist terminology, as the symptom of a psychologically under-developed person. It seems that many people are selfish merely because they're not strong enough to be compassionate.


Please elaborate. Self-interest is a sign that an individual is not strong enough to be compassionate? :what:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7554173 -

I am not going to explain Objectivism to you.

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7554722 -

It's interesting that you say that Mushman, because I have recently come to the conclusion that I've been naive all this time trying to be compassionate (maybe it's just an eagerness to please?) while most people have been focusing on rational egoism. I have mixed feelings about rational egoism as it seems to be even less natural than schizophrenia or mystical states but that is my perspective, and although it may limit ourselves, it is the conditioning of most people so it is worth it to invest yourself in it I suppose.

Quote:
Careful about becoming a light to others though, most people prefer the comfort of darkness and do not like to feel self-conscious (naked) in the presence of someone who is into total awareness - especially of themselves.


So very true. I remember I just had two people come up to me at my University today and ask me if I wanted to learn about Jesus and come to their church to read the Bible.

I told them how I respected them for their beliefs, but my time knowing Jesus (Compassion) was much too difficult for me as I had to do it alone with no help, and I was not prepared for that kind of responsibility again.

I remember so clearly walking the streets in horror (not fear, just a feeling of tragedy) at the suffering in people's eyes and in their bodies, I remember seeing the pain in my family and trying to help them but there wounds were so deep, just getting near to them in spirit was too painful for them. I tried to smile and project my entire heart to everyone but most people were not open enough to it. I consciously chose to come back into the darkness because what I saw when the light turned on was too much to bear for one person.

I will enter the light again when my time is ready, I'm sure. I did tell the people who came up to me that I'd come and read some of the Bible with them just because I had never read it before and I'm interested in what it actually says.


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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7554730 -

I object to any and all individuals or groups of people who insult, belittle, demean or mock THAT which is Sacred to other human beings.

Object all you want. It will still happen. As long as someone doesn't physically  interfere with my beliefs it's my responsibility to not take offense at what ever they believe or say.

So, I posit a second self-evident point: certain individuals have experiences of Ultimate Reality.

Doubt it. Unless you have some proof of this then it's just a happy belief of yours kind of like the fundamentalist belief in hell.


I do agree that compassion is a good thing however one gets to it.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: Icelander]
    #7554743 -

I'll say this, my experience tells me that there is some kind of source in which if you are connected to it, it compels you to act morally. This morality isn't based on any set of ethics, it is just intuitive compassion, you do whatever is in your power to help people the way they need to be helped.


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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7554745 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Wisdom is measured by one's capacity to Be Compassionate.


The older I become the truthier this seems. I view rational self-interest, to use objectivist terminology, as the symptom of a psychologically under-developed person. It seems that many people are selfish merely because they're not strong enough to be compassionate.


I tell you this dude. Rational self interest is compassionate towards others. Irrational self interest is fear driven. It is certainly in my self interest to live in a compassionate world. To gain a bigger piece of the pie to protect myself at all costs is really not in my rational self interest as happiness is for sure a condition of my self interest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7554749 -

EternalCowabunga said:
I'll say this, my experience tells me that there is some kind of source in which if you are connected to it, it compels you to act morally. This morality isn't based on any set of ethics, it is just intuitive compassion, you do whatever is in your power to help people the way they need to be helped.


Rational self interest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: Icelander]
    #7554755 -

Most philosophers agree that rational self interest is good for both yourself and society.


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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: Icelander]
    #7554760 -

Icelander said:
EternalCowabunga said:
I'll say this, my experience tells me that there is some kind of source in which if you are connected to it, it compels you to act morally. This morality isn't based on any set of ethics, it is just intuitive compassion, you do whatever is in your power to help people the way they need to be helped.


Rational self interest.


If that is the case, than most people are not practicing rational self interest. I guess it depends on how much fear you have inside of you that gets in the way.


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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7554774 -

Huge truth.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: Icelander]
    #7555416 -

Your obsession with the notion of proof in these matters is just sad. I cannot prove subjective states to you directly, but certain subjective states have radically changed my life, including my choice of academic study, my deep values, my choice of partner (finally), my aesthetics, my politics, virtually everything.

If you knew me prior to having certain experiences as well as after, you would see the difference, but you might attribute the change to maturation across time or some other variable. Some changes were fairly radical, others did ripen with age, but the nature of a few, and one experience in particular did manifest what the literature calls Asamprajnata Samadhi, a radical departure from the rigid Nirkikalpa Samadhi that I had experienced earlier in which the ego-sense remained. Regardless. I am a mystic inasmuch as mystical experience has been impressed on my memory. I use the word mysticism as defined by Evelyn Underhill, take it or leave it (I'm sure you'll leave it): (Italics hers)

"Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims at and believes in such attainment."

My claim is to have "attained" such union which makes my claim one of gnosis rather than of belief. Doubt away. Nobody is obliged to have 'belief' in another's experience. Religious experience, according to Jung at least, only has authority over the experiencer. It certainly has had authority over my life since 1973.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7555447 -

You sound here just like all the other religious folk.

And what is really sad is we are supposed to take your word as proof on this debate forum.

You said "self evident" and it isn't. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7555472 -

MushmanTheManic said:
I am not going to explain Objectivism to you.


I didn't ask you to; I asked you to explain the notion that you proposed that rational self-interest is evidence that an individual is not "strong" enough to be compassionate. We aren't talking about "Objectivism" - we are discussing the specific idea that you proposed.

Of course, the statement you proposed, on its own, makes absolutely no sense - it doesn't convey any meaning. Who knows what you are talking about. :shrug: Why waste your time by proposing meaningless statements if you are not going to demonstrate what you meant? :what:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Protest Against Religious Bigotry! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7555562 -

Perhaps it might be more accurate (and less open to debate) if you had said "some individuals have had life-altering experiences which they believe to be the result of contact with Ultimate Reality."

As it stands, your claim of this as fact IS subject to debate, and you follow up by saying that subjective experience cannot be proven.  If you cannot prove it, then you cannot state it as objective fact.  :shrug:

No one needs to prove their experiences to anyone else, UNLESS they assert that their experiences are absolutely reflective of particular facts.  If I say that I have experienced flying without mechanical assistance, is this claim subject to verification?  The same applies to your claim that "certain individuals" have contacted Ultimate Reality.

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