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OfflinePositronius
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Registered: 11/27/03
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Compassion
    #2789314 - 06/13/04 05:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

For thousands of years human beings have been preaching to one and other tenets of compassion. These observances grew to be guidelines, which eventually morphed into doctrines and thus became the underpinnings of the fabric of civilization.

The modern world has been built upon a belief in compassion; the majority of societies have been dominated by this idea, be it Capitalist America, Communist China, Catholic Italy or Protestant Scotland.

and what has it brought us? what has all this talk of compassion resulted in?

So why havent we gotten the point yet? if compassion is truly the best vehicle for humanity, which is what we have been telling, nay COMMANDING ourselves for the past few millenia, why hasnt it truly caught on?

Most of you on this board seem to think that the solution to our problems is to just keep beating this dead horse, in hopes that -this- time it will work! And when someone calls into question this "obvious" spiritual truth, he is either cast off as a "buffoon" or somehow "unenlightened".

Well enlightened ones, riddle me this, if your solution is truly a solution to whatever you are trying to solve, why hasnt it produced the world it promises? :eek:


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789321 - 06/13/04 05:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

don't think compassion has been the ruler for thousands of years as you have said.. many ages were ruled by torment and communism by oppresive leaders saping thier peoples lives... compassion is just what a few(thousand) great teachers have taught... compassion is the oposite of greed... it is the key to anything 'spiritual' at its core meaning..... I think


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Compassion [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2789347 - 06/13/04 05:32 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well, how long have Christianity and Buddhism been the official state religions of X amount of countries for the past thousand years?

And are you trying to say that communism has nothing to do with compassion? communism is compassion forced through economics.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789349 - 06/13/04 05:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You already know the answer to this one, Pos.

It is because everyone defines compassion differently and from a place of self-interest.

The inquisition was to save the Infidel's souls.

The War of Drugs is just to protect the drug users from themselves.

We bomb innocent Iraqi citizens to protect them from a greater evil and so forth.

Bottom line: We all want to "fix" the others' sins and not our own (because even though we may declare that we are sinners publicly, we really don't believe it; only the other guy is.)


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Compassion [Re: Swami]
    #2789452 - 06/13/04 08:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

& we elect our legislators to make laws to force "them other folks" to mend their ways, not "us" ...
(unfortunately, to a lawmaker, pretty much everybody ends up being "other" ...)
:frown:


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinewrong
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789518 - 06/13/04 09:28 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

woudl it be compassionate if everybody killed themselves in the interest of not fucking things up more


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789579 - 06/13/04 10:49 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah dude, you're right. Trying to be compassionate must be wrong. Well, hmmm, what's the alternative, being cruel, or maybe being hateful? That's gotta be the way! Tell you what Posi, you go ahead and keep cultivating your hatred but as for me I think I'm gonna keep trying with this crazy love idea for a while longer.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789587 - 06/13/04 11:01 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

if everyone wiped their own ass things wouldnt stink like shit.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Compassion [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2789602 - 06/13/04 11:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

where'd he say anything about cultivating hatred?*


*not a retorical question


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789627 - 06/13/04 11:55 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Although you can choreograph compassionate acts and script compassion meditations, it emerges naturally during the coalescence stage or during re-integration from a cosmic experience.

In emergeing naturally, I mean that no other fold or openning of mindspace seems more appropriate, and for a while one is a conductor of this good intelligent principle of behavior.

Others observe, and appreciate, and the chorography and scripts begin again, which is not bad in itself. a compassionate sleepwalker is way better than a nasty one.

So go back to salvia space or wherever it is that all your rules are dissassembled, and I'll see you on the way back: hardly a riddle, more of an interactive hyperspatial geometry process.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Compassion [Re: Swami]
    #2789631 - 06/13/04 11:59 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think you make a great point, Swami. Positive change has to start within ourselves.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789650 - 06/13/04 12:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"And when someone calls into question this "obvious" spiritual truth, he is either cast off as a "buffoon" or somehow "unenlightened".

Well enlightened ones, riddle me this,"

haha good question. really though, I haven't seen many people on this board claim to be enlightened at all. sure a couple do, but don't just lump people into one category. your argument looses weight when you do that, even when you imply it.




"if compassion is truly the best vehicle for humanity, which is what we have been telling, nay COMMANDING ourselves for the past few millenia, why hasnt it truly caught on?"

I have yet to see anyone around where i live tell, nay COMMAND themselves to be compassionate at all. i don't think the ideas are as revelant as you seem to think.

who said anything about it being a solution. how about the ideas could help. it doesn't hurt to talk about it, does it? to discuss.....

We are all beating a dead horse here, including yourself. you just chose one dead horse over the others.

"For thousands of years human beings have been preaching to one and other tenets of compassion. These observances grew to be guidelines, which eventually morphed into doctrines and thus became the underpinnings of the fabric of civilization.

The modern world has been built upon a belief in compassion; the majority of societies have been dominated by this idea, be it Capitalist America, Communist China, Catholic Italy or Protestant Scotland."

captialist america was founded on genocide and slavery. compassion is when there is a strong sympathy for someone who is hurting, combined with a desire to help that person. please tell me how that slaughter of those people, and the changing of their beliefs was in the name of compassion? after all, isn't it the start of captialist america that has had the MOST influence over the world's society in the past 100 years? aspecially now since companies are world wide, and companies have a say in our govt, and many other govt's around the world. not to mention the TV has had a huge impact on how we live and our progression.

i think those underpinnings you said that have set this fabric have been torn out and replaced. it's all about the money sign, it's all about just one person, screw the majority, "it's about me." I am what matters most. that's the idea now that I feel is the real underpinnings of THIS society.


one reason is that I see compassionate people are easy to be taken advantage of. whether it was the jews, the natives, africans, buddhists, can be easily reconciled with by force. and if you really look at it, Native americans were done in by force and deciet, so were the africans, and the jews.

the ideas for compassion the way I see are barely relevant at all in the way you describe. People now and days have to have a reason to feel compassionate for others, which undermines compassion altogether. so where are your underpinnings? how have I been "sold" these ideas when I am, just recently, were introduced to them?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleKttail
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Re: Compassion [Re: CleverName]
    #2789701 - 06/13/04 12:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

However crude the analogy, it seems somehow accurate.
Those who preach compassion often don't have it.
Enlightened ones? Are there any? Would we believe them if they proclaimed themselves?
Compassion for the murderer who's parents caused him/her to be that way.
Compassion for the hijackers who were driven to terrorism by the evils of the modern world.
Compassion for the abused spouse who lies in the emergency room and keeps going back.
I started to read a book this morning called "The abusive verbal relationship". The first few pages only pointed out compassion for a woman who is being harmed by a male, no allowance that situations could be the other way around. The author even went so far as to downgrade men as a whole, telling me she didn't know shit. I (a male) am in a relationship such as that and although physical abuse is not someting I have to worry about, there are things worse a person can suffer. Compassion? I don't want it or need it, I'm exactly where I choose to be and can leave should I decide to.
Compassion is relative. Relative to a persons own life and situations.
I believe that people should feel compassion for others.
However, IMHO, compassion that is accompanied by ignorance or judgementalism is self-defeating and sometimes more harmful than not.
I think that the questions that started this thread are to vague, there are too many variables. Faith without Works is Dead.
You can tell who the people are that truly have compassion for something or someone, for they are out there trying to do something about it without judging or placing blame on anyone and without thought for any personal gain.
Truly, in the wise words of CleverName "if everyone wiped their own ass things wouldnt stink like shit".


--------------------
"Do not meddle,
In the affairs of Dragons.
For thou art crunchy,
and tasty with catsup."


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
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Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Compassion [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2789784 - 06/13/04 01:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
Yeah dude, you're right. Trying to be compassionate must be wrong. Well, hmmm, what's the alternative, being cruel, or maybe being hateful? That's gotta be the way! Tell you what Posi, you go ahead and keep cultivating your hatred but as for me I think I'm gonna keep trying with this crazy love idea for a while longer.




Wow, you Sir, are truly an idiot. I really do not know how to approach such a poorly conceived comment.

One - I never attacked the idea of -being- compassionate.

two- I never said anything about hatred.

So, is this how your mind works: a person criticizes your beliefs, so automatically, they become a rabid, hateful mongoloid? You're a perfect example of "hippius ironicus".


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789790 - 06/13/04 01:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"Wow, you Sir, are truly an idiot. I really do not know how to approach such a poorly conceived comment."

and what about your poorly concieved comment?

skepticus closedmindus?    :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Compassion [Re: kaiowas]
    #2789825 - 06/13/04 02:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

kaiowas

"I have yet to see anyone around where i live tell, nay COMMAND themselves to be compassionate at all"

All Christians are commanded to be compassionate by their god. You must not be in contact with anyone who has a christian background.

"who said anything about it being a solution"

Do I really have to go back through the countless threads where countless people have said "compassion is the way" etc.?

"We are all beating a dead horse here, including yourself."

Nope, Im trying to dream up a new horse, so that one day my grandchildren may beat it to death.

"captialist america was founded on genocide and slavery"

capitalist america is primarily christian, a people who preach compassion.

"it's all about the money sign"

what is the history of the "price" concept??? it came from a protestant desire for more equality.

"one reason is that I see compassionate people are easy to be taken advantage of. whether it was the jews, the natives, africans, buddhists"

....since when were any of these people compassionate? maybe you could present some sort of evidence.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789860 - 06/13/04 02:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

ah..I think see where you are going with this, now I understand!

"All Christians are commanded to be compassionate by their god. You must not be in contact with anyone who has a christian background."

would you agree that commanding someone to be compassionate undermines the whole concept to begin with?  I'm not saying there's a right or a wrong way, but I feel that compassion comes from deep within oneself, and commanding someone to do it, instead of sitting down with a person and just discussing ideas, undermines the whole compassion concept to begin with.

"Do I really have to go back through the countless threads where countless people have said "compassion is the way" etc.?"

no..I've seen these posts, and I made a compassion posts of my own.  On the flipside, saying doing one thing is "they way" is kind of closeminded.  life doesn't really show us one ideas, it's a culmination of many different ideas, isn't it? 

"Nope, Im trying to dream up a new horse, so that one day my grandchildren may beat it to death."

try as you may...and a very good effort at that, the basis of questioning and being critical ideas to find truth or whatever has been used just as long as the idea of compassion, and where has that got us? I'm not saying thois horse can't give a good ride cause it definately can, but it's been used quite often :grin:

"capitalist america is primarily christian, a people who preach compassion."

there are those how preach and follow blindly, and there are those who actually live out the ideas.  it's all too easy for people in power who set up this system to say they are "christian."

is owning slaves very christ like?????

did or did not the christians enslave the destroyed natives, changed their ideas and beliefs, and took the land that wasn't even theirs to begin with?  was that very christ like?  so the teachings on a grand scale never fully went through. 

so are you suggesting then that since the teachings of compassion can't even be followed by the actual followers , then compassion is unrealistic?? 

"what is the history of the "price" concept??? it came from a protestant desire for more equality. "

things have been assigned to a price since the egyptians and probably before then.

what I am trying to get at is that while there are a lot of preaching going on...not too many are there to listen.  I like to try to look at the intent of religion, and as you have pointed out so well, it does have a huge influence on society today. I know I'm goign to get pegged for this, but to me when I look at christianity i see more fear than love.  I see something created to control the minds of others rather than to help and love.  this undermines the whole idea of compassion in the first place and as you have pointed out, it shows on how we live.

"since when were any of these people compassionate? maybe you could present some sort of evidence. "

very true, I did make a very big assumption there.  :thumbup:

on the flipside, I think they aren't as different as many of us here.  we have all been compassionate in some way or another, so really, how haven't they ever been compassionate

i just look at it as basically just ideas that can help this society run a lot smoother than it is. If i were to have one "way" or "the way" it would be the working towards improving oneself.

don't you think compassion can help that out?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2789883 - 06/13/04 02:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Compassion, my friend, requires that a human mammal, transcend one's 'centauric' nature, and act from a 'higher' center of motivation. That new Center, sometimes called 'the transcendental ego,' or 'the Self' or 'being in Christ,' or 'the Diamond Body,' or 'Atman' etc., etc. means that in practice, one can be sufficiently detached from one's own desire-bound motivations for self-preservation, sex, and power/social status, that a uniquely objective stance is assumed. One acts in accordance with what task is presented to one in a given moment. I endeavor to act from this Center as much as possible, and as one with a spiritual world-view, it is my understanding that my ability to act fully as a 'human being' as opposed to a merely centauric-natured human mammal hinges on the single choice to act from Compassion.

Now, we all have these abilities - the natural and the spiritual - (St. Paul liked to differentiate these), and human development beyond the ego-based systems, as I said, requires increased identification with the Compassionate Self.
Now I of course can be as selfish as the next person (not pathologically so as in the criminal), but night before last I had an opportunity to act Compassionately, and I did so. My ego moaned "Damn!," as it 'died' to the motive of the Compassionate Self ('crucifying the ego'). I went outside in early evening to retrieve mail on the first day of my summer vacation (hot as hell, but the sun was going down). My female neighbor, who has just gotten over her third bout with cancer and chemo, was attempting to sink 4" pressure-treated 8 foot posts in the ground around a concrete slab. The materials were delivered, but since her husband chose to leave her for another woman in the middle of chemotherapy, and she was clueless, I felt compelled to help her. She wants to build an enclosure for her [apparently] ADHD 6 year old daughter. Her elderly mother was even trying to dig the holes. Another male neighbor also joined in to measure, level, hammer supports, mix and pour the concrete. Two down, two to go, and then the pre-fab fence.

My neighbor, another Mark[os], and I, simply knew that it was the 'right' thing to do. She can't afford to hire anyone, her need was real, and our altruism - a rather secularized synonym for Compassion simply guided our labor. I believe this would be called a 'labor of love,' and is its own reward. Neither of us is particularly close with this lady, but 'closeness' belongs to the emotional, soulful, centauric nature [really, Ken Wilber's term]. Have we cured the world's ills? No. Are we great saints or highly enlightened beings? Probably not. Did we work our ass's off after a day of work, and agree to help finish the job without resentment, obligation, guilt, machismo, hope of reward? Yes, I believe we did.

Expecting the entire world to become Heaven-on-Earth with human beings helping one another is the mythos of a Golden Age or the Kingdom of Heaven. We draw down moments of this mythic Golden Age, this New Heaven and New Earth, when we act Compassionately. In so doing we are not only 'ahead of our time,' we are in some measure 'outside of time,' because as long as we are measuring 'our' time by 30 minute sit coms and other idiotic ego-indulgences, we are entirely trapped in 'profane time.' Instead, we worked our ass's off in a state of pure Karma Yoga - the Yoga of work. We were into the moment! Isn't that the most important lesson that psychedelics have to teach, not to mention the religions of Compassion? Peace out.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/13/04 03:03 PM)


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Compassion [Re: Positronius]
    #2790738 - 06/13/04 09:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
One - I never attacked the idea of -being- compassionate.





Quote:

Positronius said:
Most of you on this board seem to think that the solution to our problems is to just keep beating this dead horse






Quote:

Positronius said:
two- I never said anything about hatred.





dictionary.com:
Compassion: a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering [syn: compassionateness] 2: the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it
It's true you didn't say hatred, but follow your thoughts through to their logical conclusion: NOT awareness and sympathy for another's suffering, NOT the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it. At best this could be described as an abscence of love for others. In most cases a void like either comes from or leads to some form of hatred.


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InvisibleKttail
DragonDreamer
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Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 114
Loc: S. Oregon Coast , USA
Re: Compassion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2791086 - 06/13/04 11:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Bravo!
That's what I'm talking about.
Good job! Though you did this without thought or wish of reward, you deserve a pat on the back and a hearty thank you from the recipient of your good deed. I bet it felt good when all was said and done, didn't it?


--------------------
"Do not meddle,
In the affairs of Dragons.
For thou art crunchy,
and tasty with catsup."


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