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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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The Libertarian message
    #7139057 -

I'm a firm believer that Libertarianism would appeal greatly to the masses if only it could get more public exposure. Why do you think that Libertarianism has not caught on a lot? Why is there such a rancorous hatred towards Libertarians by the neo-cons and mainstream Republicans? Is it because the things that the Republicans advocate but don't actually do (fiscal conservatism) would actually be acted out by Libertarians? Is it because the Republicans see what hypocrites they are?

The arguments of the Libertarians about how the Republican Party has been led astray are never countered effectively in my opinion. When Ron Paul brought up the simple fact that U.S. interventionism has caused enmity towards the U.S. (which makes us less secure) Guiliani got up on his soapbox to spout out some 10 second blurb that he knew would get on the news and that completely distorted what Ron said.

Personally, I think the Republicans are afraid of Libertarianism as it is a threat to their power.

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7139171 -

Yep. Now I have a question thats been on my mind since jumping on the Ron Paul bandwagon.

"When Ron Paul brought up the simple fact that U.S. interventionism has caused enmity towards the U.S"

As a republican i always thought the libertarian foreign policy was a joke, but now I am willing to give it a try. Can it get any worse?

So if Ron Paul became president would we pull out of Iraq and close down the nearly 1000 permanent military bases in 130 countries across the globe????Including five major big permanent ones being built in Iraq?

Would a major war in the middle east for example (Iran vs Saudi Arabia) really hurt the U.S. that bad? How would that effect our economy besides $5 dollar gas?

Love to hear what Economist thinks would happen.


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7139210 -

I would like libertarians a lot more if they were more moderate. It seems only the extreme libertarians who want to abolish the federal reserve and end welfare are the ones running for office. There are a few exceptions. I'm a big fan of Jim Gray(who ran for senate in California a couple years ago and is a vocal opponent of the War on Drugs), and there's a couple others who seem genuinely thoughtful and intelligent, but mostly I see a bunch of rabid ideologues, which I can't stand in any party. That said, I still consider them my backup in case I can't stand either the Democratic or Republican candidate(which is quite often).


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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7139219 -

So, you are becoming more isolationist?

You probably have the same desire that I do: ensuring U.S. economic and military supremacy. The neo-cons think that in order to do that we have to have troops all over the world and be sticking our noses in other nation's business. I think that this actually makes us weaker. In my opinion, in order to ensure our continued supremacy we should conserve our resources and not piss a bunch of people off.

But, even ignoring the foreign policy matters, you must concede that Libertarians are much more likely to practise what they preach when it comes to limited government and fiscal conservatism.

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: Silversoul]
    #7139225 -

Yeah, I see what you mean. A lot of the front-running Libertarians seem to be the more extreme ones and sometimes they come across as just plain goofy. Ron Paul doesn't seem too nutty in what I've seen him say.

I'm not referring to the rabid and dogmatic Libertarians...I'm referring more to the basics of Libertarianism. I think that these priniciples would be a breath of fresh air upon the political landscape.

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7139342 -

RandalFlagg said:
But, even ignoring the foreign policy matters, you must concede that Libertarians are much more likely to practise what they preach when it comes to limited government and fiscal conservatism.


1. 8 years of Bush

2. reading, learning, and hanging out in PAL

3. Reading everything I could about Ron Paul

I have finally seen the light! There is no lesser of two evils!!! Both the republicans and the Democrats are just Political whores...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7139853 -

lonestar2004 said:
As a republican i always thought the libertarian foreign policy was a joke, but now I am willing to give it a try. Can it get any worse?

So if Ron Paul became president would we pull out of Iraq and close down the nearly 1000 permanent military bases in 130 countries across the globe????Including five major big permanent ones being built in Iraq?

Would a major war in the middle east for example (Iran vs Saudi Arabia) really hurt the U.S. that bad? How would that effect our economy besides $5 dollar gas?

Love to hear what Economist thinks would happen.


I definitely believe that a Libertarian foreign policy would benefit us quite a bit more than the current one.

The one area of concern (for me) would be about an inability to keep our avenues of trade open via military means. Not the Admiralty using bombardment to open up Japan to trade, mind you, but a situation similar to what we saw in the First Gulf War, where Iraq could use its military to prevent the US from accessing Kuwaiti oil.

In a situation like that, both the US and Kuwait want to trade oil, so there's no coercion going on (yeah, I'm simplifying, but this is for the sake of argument), and a third party comes in and damages our trading interests.

In the current world this is nearly impossible because US aircraft carriers and marines stop this from happening. Were we to close all our overseas installations, I'm not clear on whether or not we'd maintain this capability. (we might, I just don't know)

IMHO, this is FAR more likely to be the danger of the future than a war between middle eastern powers.

If middle eastern powers went to war, I would actually expect the price of oil to DECLINE as opposing sides rushed to sell off reserves in order to finance the conflict. Look at diamond prices. When severe conflict happens in diamond producing regions, diamonds actually begin to sell well below previous market prices as rebels and other groups readily trade them for arms.

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: Economist]
    #7141707 -

Interesting, if middle eastern powers went to war, the price of oil could decline! bring our boys home!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Libertarian message [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7141723 -

That is an iffy analysis....any conflict could cause each of the parties involved to intentionally fuck with the other's oil industries (as that is the only source of revenue for the Arabs pretty much) which could cause shortages which would lead to price spikes.

If only we could have taken all of the money that we have dumped into the Middle East and used it to finance alternative energies so we wouldn't need the fucking ragheads.  :nonono:

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7144526 -

RandalFlagg said:
That is an iffy analysis....any conflict could cause each of the parties involved to intentionally fuck with the other's oil industries (as that is the only source of revenue for the Arabs pretty much) which could cause shortages which would lead to price spikes.


Obviously I can't predict exactly what would happen, but...

I'd expect oil resources to be treated like diamond mines in African conflicts. Rival forces COULD implode diamond mines in order to deny their resouces to advancing forces, but they know that in doing so they only screw themselves, and leave the mines intact hoping to re-capture them.

Any side at war in the Middle East would probably have a goal of seizing (rather than destroying) their opponent's oil resources, leading to strategies aimed to keep oil resources unharmed.

Of course, the opposite is also possible...

Edit:

Also, on the topic, I think a problem with Libertarianism is the current deep divisions in the LP itself. Every convention there's a huge fight between the "pragmatists" and the "purists" about whether intermediate goals or end goals should guide the party platform. That the convention has started being aired on CSPAN (I suspect so that people can laugh at some of the more vehement "purists"), leading to some pretty "out-there" rhetoric becoming the public face of the LP.

Edited by Economist (07/08/07 02:21 AM)

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7144572 -

I think most Libertarians are too radical for middle America is the reason for their not getting elected, not lack of exposure.

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: Le_Canard]
    #7144653 -

Correct me if I'm wrong but libertarians/Ron Paul are against "federal welfare" programs including federal aid programs, Medicare, Medicaid, social security, IRS, dept of education, ATF, ETC

thats like half the country not getting a check!!!!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Libertarian message [Re: lonestar2004]
    #7145528 -

I fail to see how isolationism is a necessary component of Libertarianism because Ron Paul espouses it. Ron Paul does not define Libertarianism any more than George Bush defines Conservatism. And did I say Ron Paul is a tool? No? Ron Paul is a tool. And a dull one at that.


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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #7149792 -

Did you ever think that the libertarian message isnt heard because people dont like it? Did you ever consider the fact that people dont like libertarians because of their views?

The libertarian message is just like any other and I just dont think people like it.

Personally, people call me a libertarian (though I consider myself non-partisan) and I dont mind. I agree with most of what they say; however, most people dont and I know this from experience. People dont want MY truth, they want their own.

**EDIT**
If im not mistaken I thought Ron Paul was running as a Republican, not Libertarian. Are we talking about the party or the ideology?

Either way, what I said before stands I just need clarification so I understand what some of you are stating.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.

Edited by AaronEvil (07/09/07 04:56 AM)

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Re: The Libertarian message [Re: AaronEvil]
    #7149904 -

I was referring more to the ideology.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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