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Anonymous

Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush
    #3301475 - 10/31/04 03:37 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Libertarian pioneer
endorses Bush

Former presidential candidate says too much at stake not to support 'W'
Posted: October 27, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

The first Libertarian Party candidate for president, who ran for the nation's highest office in 1972, has issued an open letter to fellow party members urging them to vote for President Bush on Tuesday...

"I still believe in [libertarian] principles as strongly as ever, but this year ? more than any year since the establishment of the Libertarian Party ? I have major concerns about the choices open to us as voting Americans," he wrote in his letter.

"There is a belief that's common among many libertarians that there is no essential difference between the Democrat and Republican Parties ? between a John Kerry and a George W. Bush administration; or worse: that a Bush administration would be more undesirable. Such a notion could not be farther from the truth, or potentially more harmful to the cause of liberty."...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41116

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3301486 - 10/31/04 03:39 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

He shall forevermore be known to me as "Judas."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: silversoul7]
    #3301499 - 10/31/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

He's right


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301513 - 10/31/04 03:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

No he isn't. He sold out. I wonder what Badnarik has to say about this.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: silversoul7]
    #3301528 - 10/31/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Yes he is. Qerry is far worse. Who gives a shit what Badnarik thinks. He was going to be president when monkeys fly out of your butt. (They fly out of mine quite often.) You can navel gaze and stroke your dick all you want but the guy is a pragmatist and all the talk of conspiracy this and conspiracy that is nothing if not useless. Qerry is one of the worst pieces of scum I have ever seen in politics. He makes Nixon and Bush look like Gandhi.


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: silversoul7]
    #3301551 - 10/31/04 03:57 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

if every libertarian voted for badnarik, kerry would win.

if every libertarian voted libertarian, democrats would almost always win.

if the republican party responded by shifting to a more libertarian platform, they would lose more votes than they would gain, and democrats would continue to win.

at this point in time, very little good will come from simply voting libertarian. libertarians need to spread the word, and work on projects like NORFED and the free state project, if they wish to further the cause of liberty. at this time, in this political climate, simply voting libertarian will not result in an increase in liberty, but a decrease.

this isn't "selling out". it's recognizing the nature of the current situation and merely responding in a way which best advances the cause of liberty.

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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
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Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3301555 - 10/31/04 03:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
He makes Nixon and Bush look like Gandhi.



:confused: ...

ok i guess i can't even really respond to such a statement...



:sad:


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Invisiblevampirism
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3301562 - 10/31/04 04:01 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
this isn't "selling out". it's recognizing the nature of the current situation and merely responding in a way which best advances the cause of liberty.




This isn't about "advancing the cause of liberty" as you see fit either.

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Anonymous

Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: vampirism]
    #3301571 - 10/31/04 04:03 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

huh?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3301649 - 10/31/04 04:31 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
if every libertarian voted for badnarik, kerry would win.



Thus creating some much-needed gridlock.  I fail to see what about Bush makes you so infatuated with him.

Quote:

if every libertarian voted libertarian, democrats would almost always win.



Unless every green voted Green.  Come to think of it, there are far more different parties for liberals to choose from than conservatives.

Quote:

if the republican party responded by shifting to a more libertarian platform, they would lose more votes than they would gain, and democrats would continue to win.



Again, this assumes that the Democrats would not also change their tactics.  What makes you so sure the Democrats wouldn't adopt more libertarian positions as well?

Quote:

at this point in time, very little good will come from simply voting libertarian. libertarians need to spread the word, and work on projects like NORFED and the free state project, if they wish to further the cause of liberty. at this time, in this political climate, simply voting libertarian will not result in an increase in liberty, but a decrease.



This sounds like you're saying that voting for Bush would result in an increase in liberty.  Let me be the first to say: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:.  We're talking about the guy who appointed Ashcroft as Attourney General, passed the Patriot Act(and continues to defend it), and sent our troops into Iraq when there was no clear and present danger.  Meanwhile, those tax cuts which Hospers praises are being paid for in inflation, a tax on every dollar in circulation.

Quote:

this isn't "selling out". it's recognizing the nature of the current situation and merely responding in a way which best advances the cause of liberty.



Not that I think Kerry is going to be some shining beacon of freedom, but you have to know enough about Bush by now to see that he is no friend of liberty.  Does the term "free speech zone" ring any bells?  We're beyond fucked by now, no matter which candidate wins, but at least with Kerry, there's some hope that he'll clash with the Republican Congress enough to at least slow down the growth of government, which is more than I can say for the Veto Virgin currently in office.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3301673 - 10/31/04 04:39 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


if every libertarian voted for badnarik, kerry would win.

if every libertarian voted libertarian, democrats would almost always win.

if the republican party responded by shifting to a more libertarian platform, they would lose more votes than they would gain, and democrats would continue to win.




Okay. Assuming all those premises are factual, what's your point? You certainly haven't proven that a government controlled by Republicans is any better than a government controlled by Democrats. I think you're going to have a hard time doing that based on the past four years of Republican bliss. Frankly, I don't understand what's happened here; you despised Bush's statism as ardently as anybody up until a few weeks ago, unless I'm mistaken. Now you see him as the clear lesser of two evils at the very least. Can you explain why, exactly, another four years of Bush will be better than four years of Kerry gridlock.

Quote:


at this point in time, very little good will come from simply voting libertarian.



Certainly doesn't help that our own brothers' in arms are content to vote for their perceived lesser of two evils. You're looking at the whole situation in a vacuum. In fact, this is sort of like a political Broken Window Fallacy. You see that which is seen(if Republican libertarians voted Libertarian obviously the Republicans would lose a lot of votes) but NOT that which is unseen(if the Libertarian party received a lot of votes, everything COULD(I can't say for sure 'would') snowball into a true mainstream movement for liberty in this country.

Quote:

libertarians need to spread the word, and work on projects like NORFED and the free state project, if they wish to further the cause of liberty. at this time, in this political climate, simply voting libertarian will not result in an increase in liberty, but a decrease.




As opposed to just voting republican which results in an increase in liberty...? I know you can see that Republicans reduce liberty in this country close to if not AS much as the Democrats. That's the mainstream Republicans(The McCains). Bush and his friends -- it is truly mind-boggling how they can be at all associated with more liberty. This administration has impinged upon liberty on so many different fronts. I hope you are not so naive to think this trend will reverse during a 2nd term. If anything it will accelerate.

Quote:


this isn't "selling out". it's recognizing the nature of the current situation and merely responding in a way which best advances the cause of liberty.



That's just downright deceptive. At least be honest about your distorted view of this: you're trying to hold onto some scraps of liberty, you're DEFINITELY not trying to advance it by voting Republican. There has been an advance of nothing but the State under Bush and this will not change. By your own admission you're voting for Bush because he is the lesser of two evils, so please don't try to tell me you're attempting to advance liberty by your vote. You've yet to even address my concern that a Kerry administration facing gridlock might just be better than a Bush administration with a complicit Congress.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Anonymous

Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: silversoul7]
    #3301684 - 10/31/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Thus creating some much-needed gridlock

and turning america into a UN-owned welfare state with a stifled economy run by the biggest socialist in the senate.

Unless every green voted Green.

and if they don't?

besides, there are far fewer greens who vote democrat than libertarians who vote republican.

Again, this assumes that the Democrats would not also change their tactics. What makes you so sure the Democrats wouldn't adopt more libertarian positions as well?

that fact that they would be winning by landslides.

This sounds like you're saying that voting for Bush would result in an increase in liberty.

it would be a far smaller decrease than a kerry presidency.

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Anonymous

Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3301695 - 10/31/04 04:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Okay. Assuming all those premises are factual, what's your point?

they are indeed factual, and the point is that nothing good will come from voting for badnarik.

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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3301702 - 10/31/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
besides, there are far fewer greens who vote democrat than libertarians who vote republican.




We don't pussy out.

Mush, if you want to be a republican, be a republican. It's fine. Or if you want to be independent, be independent. But if you want to consider yourself a libertarian, you should give your party the diginity of voting for its presidential candidate. Unless there's something wrong with Badnarik. But to me he seems like an honest man and a superb choice - and I'm not even voting for him. I know I asked this already, but do you think you'll feel comfortable with your choice on Wednesday if Kerry has taken Pennsylvania?

:cheers:


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Anonymous

Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: Gijith]
    #3301720 - 10/31/04 04:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Mush, if you want to be a republican, be a republican.

i am not a republican. i am a philosophical libertarian considering voting for a republican.

I know I asked this already, but do you think you'll feel comfortable with your choice on Wednesday if Kerry has taken Pennsylvania?

if kerry takes PA (which he likely will), i will feel less comfortable having voted for badnarik and having done nothing to help prevent it.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3301728 - 10/31/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Okay. Assuming all those premises are factual, what's your point?

they are indeed factual, and the point is that nothing good will come from voting for badnarik.



Is that really the only response my post merits? Hopefully I'll remember not to bother in the future...


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Anonymous

Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3301746 - 10/31/04 05:08 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

i've got 3 exams tomorrow that i'm studying for right now. i'll address comments more fully when i've got more time.

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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 14 years, 12 days
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3302029 - 10/31/04 06:11 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Do you really think that President Bush is closer to libertarian positions than Kerry, or that the cause of libertarians would be served by a Bush presidency than Kerry?

If you genuinely prefer Bush to Kerry and live in an even marginally swing state, I think you should vote Bush. I just don't see that Bush has been good for libertarians at all, even to the extent that Kerry won't be any worse, particularly with a Rupublican-controlled congress.

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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: ]
    #3302615 - 10/31/04 08:47 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I like libertarians but I support Bush. If the Dems had a moderate like Clinton I wouldn't be so worried. John Kerry scares me. Go Mush Go! You live in a swing state and your vote is needed.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Libertarian pioneer endorses Bush [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3302632 - 10/31/04 08:52 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
If the Dems had a moderate like Clinton I wouldn't be so worried. John Kerry scares me. .




i get scared when people paint John Kerry as a "liberal" candidate...

if he is the most "liberal" candidate this country has to offer, then poor people everywhere are royally screwed!!!


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