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Offlinepattern
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Libertarians vs Republicans
    #1503981 - 04/29/03 12:40 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I can see what Democrats have against Libertarians, but why don't more Republicans vote Libertarian? They seem to have alot in common.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1503988 - 04/29/03 12:43 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

There is a large faction of the Republican party that refer to themselves as "small-l libertarians". The official group within the Republicans is the RLC, Republican Liberty Caucus. P.J. O'Rourke is a good example of a small-l libertarian.

This comes down to the same issue with Greens and Democrats about splitting the vote, etc... Both major parties are fairly diverse coalitions, regardless of stereotyping.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504007 - 04/29/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I would guess that the reason more Republicans don't vote libertarian is because there isn't a "serious" candidate that has a shot at winning. I've said this over and over again that if Harry Browne just attempted to do what it takes to be president he would have a good chance. Unfortunatly he thinks that all he has to do is state that he is a libertarian and the votes will come.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504011 - 04/29/03 12:51 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Interesting. This "splitting the vote" mentality really bugs me. Voting isnt a popularity contest. If people want Libertarians in power, the only way is to vote them in, and stop being so paranoid about vote splitting.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1504018 - 04/29/03 12:54 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

You are right. I have the book "Why Government Doesn't Work" by Harry Browne, personally I wouldnt vote for the guy, he is a little insane.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504024 - 04/29/03 12:56 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Interesting. This "splitting the vote" mentality really bugs me. Voting isnt a popularity contest.




Tell that to Gore.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1504038 - 04/29/03 01:01 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

hahahah ouch


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504042 - 04/29/03 01:03 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Well, it's a matter of having a good chance of getting an ok guy into office, as opposed to having a snowball's chance in hell of getting someone you really, really like.

I can see both sides. Strength in numbers and a better shot at winning versus compromising yoru position. Life sucks.

The only hardcore libertarian in federal office is Ron Paul, and he's technically a Republican.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504130 - 04/29/03 01:29 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Libertarians are basically in agreement with Liberals on social issues such as gay marriage, the military, and civil liberties, while they tend to agree with Conservatives on issues like taxes, foreign aid, and welfare. So basically, they are both, but at the same time, they are neither.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504396 - 04/29/03 02:28 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

It seems to me they are the best of both.

So why not vote for them?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504404 - 04/29/03 02:31 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

It seems to me they are the best of both.

So why not vote for them?



Because I don't agree with their economic views.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504420 - 04/29/03 02:36 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I see, I tend to agree with you, they are a bit too radical economically. They could use a dash of socialism.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504426 - 04/29/03 02:38 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Frankly, I just don't get how they think a taxless society can work.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504438 - 04/29/03 02:42 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Libertarian Party View on Taxes
It doesn't say anything about no taxes.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504444 - 04/29/03 02:43 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

It might work in optimal conditions, in the long run, but right now I dont think it would work. Basically it would be: rich people survive, poor people are fucked. Just tax the rich and be done with it.

I still think the American federal government is bloated, it could use a diet. Both Republicans and Democrats are making it bigger and bigger. If Libertarians focused on cutting the fat, instead of chopping off the legs, it could appeal to more people.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: z@z.com]
    #1504445 - 04/29/03 02:43 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I see. I stand corrected.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504451 - 04/29/03 02:45 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Ok now go vote for them.  :wink:


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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504454 - 04/29/03 02:46 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

republicans claim to respect "economic" freedom, but they do not. they still are better than the democrats in that aspect though. likewise, the democrats claim to respect "personal" freedom, but they do not, yet they are better than the republicans there.

libertarians do not make the distinction between "social" or "personal" liberty and "economic" liberty. unlike the republicans or democrats, they respect both, and to the utmost degree.

i do think a taxless society could work. i think taxes are nothing more than extortion and should be abolished. if our government limited its activities to protecting american citizens from force or fraud, it could easily get by on money from sources like fines and lotteries.



Edited by mushmaster (04/29/03 02:49 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504457 - 04/29/03 02:48 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

No. I still disagree with their economic policy. Actually, I would be more than happy to elect a few of them to office, especially if it's an office that has some influence over drug policy. I just don't want them eliminating welfare and environmental regulations.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504459 - 04/29/03 02:50 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)



--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1504460 - 04/29/03 02:50 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

i do think a taxless society could work. i think taxes are nothing more than extortion and should be abolished. if our government limited its activities to protecting american citizens from force or fraud, it could easily get by on money from sources like fines and lotteries.



So you really think fines and lotteries could pay for things like road maintenance?


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504469 - 04/29/03 02:52 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)



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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504472 - 04/29/03 02:53 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

roads should be maintained by the private sector. there is no reason for the government to maintain roads.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1504474 - 04/29/03 02:54 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Beat ya to it Mushmaster.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504477 - 04/29/03 02:54 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Well I'm wondering how else you guys are going to end the Drug War? Only Libertarians seem to be dedicated to that task.

I seriously doubt Democrats will end it. Even when they say they will, like Carter, it turns out to be a lie. And of course Republicans love the Drug War. I wouldnt vote for any party that wants to jail me.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504484 - 04/29/03 02:57 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

i do think a taxless society could work. i think taxes are nothing more than extortion and should be abolished. if our government limited its activities to protecting american citizens from force or fraud, it could easily get by on money from sources like fines and lotteries. 



So you really think fines and lotteries could pay for things like road maintenance? 




Fines alone can cover anything here in BC.... :tongue:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504486 - 04/29/03 02:57 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Well I'm wondering how else you guys are going to end the Drug War? Only Libertarians seem to be dedicated to that task.



Both major parties are pouring money into the Drug War, but Libertarians aren't the only party dedicated to ending it. The Green Party has also denounced the Drug War, and is fighting to end it.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504494 - 04/29/03 03:01 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

The green party also wants to take away much of our economic freedom. I would never stand for that.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: z@z.com]
    #1504500 - 04/29/03 03:02 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Oh yeah I keep forgetting about the Green Party. Would you vote for them?


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504504 - 04/29/03 03:04 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

i wouldn't.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1504506 - 04/29/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Nor would I.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504507 - 04/29/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I certainly would.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: z@z.com]
    #1504511 - 04/29/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Has anyone here voted Libertarian?

Is anyone here going to vote Libertarian?


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504512 - 04/29/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Well I'm wondering how else you guys are going to end the Drug War? Only Libertarians seem to be dedicated to that task.





Quite a few heavyweight conservatives have come out against the drug war. WF Buckley and George Schultz to name a few.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1504515 - 04/29/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I might vote Libertarian if I can't stand either of the mainstream candidates.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504519 - 04/29/03 03:08 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Cool.  I'm happy you are voting to keep yourself out of jail.  :grin: 


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Offlinepsilo25
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: z@z.com]
    #1505313 - 04/29/03 06:59 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Goddamn, those Libertarians make so much sense. Why wouldn't anyone vote for them?


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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1505597 - 04/29/03 08:23 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Has anyone here voted Libertarian? 

Is anyone here going to vote Libertarian? 




:smile: :smile: :smile: 


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: psilo25]
    #1505688 - 04/29/03 08:46 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Goddamn, those Libertarians make so much sense. Why wouldn't anyone vote for them? 




Truer words were never spoken.

Its all part of the plan: Americans turn libertarian and Canadians stay socialist. :grin: 


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: 40oz]
    #1505764 - 04/29/03 09:15 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

In a related story, my set of psychedelic republican trading cards finally arrived! I FINALLY HAVE THE COMPLETE SET!



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: pattern]
    #1505884 - 04/29/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Goddamn, those Libertarians make so much sense. Why wouldn't anyone vote for them? 




Truer words were never spoken.

Its all part of the plan: Americans turn libertarian and Canadians stay socialist. :grin: 



I'd be fine with that if it became easier for Americans to become Canadian citizens.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1505998 - 04/29/03 10:43 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

roads should be maintained by the private sector. there is no reason for the government to maintain roads.




Do you know why interstates were created?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506015 - 04/29/03 10:50 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Do you know why interstates were created?

For interstate travel by automobile. yes, i am aware that this is of strategic importance to our military.


Edited by mushmaster (04/30/03 05:58 PM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1506020 - 04/29/03 10:52 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Well let me rephrase that. Do you know and understand why the government has a vested interest in the interstate system?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506022 - 04/29/03 10:52 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

post edited. check it out. what's the point?


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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1506024 - 04/29/03 10:52 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

So why then shouldn't the government pay for it?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1506028 - 04/29/03 10:55 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

My point is that only somebody who is completely ingorant ot the functionality of the government would propose eliminating taxation.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506032 - 04/29/03 10:57 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

if the interstate highway system is a part of our defensive infrastructure, then it's ok that the government pays for it.


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506036 - 04/29/03 10:58 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

My point is that only somebody who is completely ingorant ot the functionality of the government would propose eliminating taxation.

no, your point is that because interstate highways are a part of our defensive infrastructure, governmental funding of highway projects is allowable under a libertarian government. it's a good example, and something i hadn't considered. i agree with you about the highways. have you any other examples of the "functionality of government"?


Edited by mushmaster (04/30/03 05:57 PM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1506038 - 04/29/03 11:01 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

there is no reason for the government to maintain roads.




Those are your words am I not correct? And how is the government going to be paying for these roads?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1506048 - 04/29/03 11:06 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Well thank you for explaining my point to me. I had no idea of the message that I was trying to convey. Thank you for pointing out my stupidity.

There are numerous things which the government spends money on that are legitimate projects. Just think for a second. I'm not here to think for you.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506052 - 04/29/03 11:08 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

i must concede that you've got me here....

i guess even within a system in which the only thing the government does is provide for defense, it is certainly possible that the cost of doing just that will be more than can be raised through non-forceful means. in that case, i suppose the only option is to force citizens to give money to the government. i don't know though... maybe someone else will have a comment on this.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: ]
    #1506068 - 04/29/03 11:13 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

But even fines and such would be considered "forceful" would they not? And what happens when the government is not able to collect enough money? Raise fines? Enact new restrictions? And how are these fines, etc. going to be collected? Who would pay the collectors? Wouldn't these "national police" be inclined to hand out more fines as it is the fines which pay their salaries? I could go on and on, but you get my point?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506076 - 04/29/03 11:19 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

yes. abolishing taxes did sound a tad radical. at the same time, taxes are really nothing more than a group of people forcefully taking money from a peaceful citizen. there's something just not right about them on a level of principle. i suppose that minimal taxes are probably necessary though even in a very minimal, non-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506110 - 04/29/03 11:33 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

... how is the government going to be paying for these roads?



User fees. There is no reason that the funding for highways need to come out of the general fund. A more equitable means would be to base funding on miles driven factored with gross vehicle weight whenever one pays his yearly automobile registration. Or all taxes from gasoline (at the point of sale) go ONLY to highway construction & maintenance (not to the general fund). Also, the technology exists for electronic toll billing or debiting and is in use on several highways throughout the country - vehicles have a transponder which is tied to a user's account, whenever they pass a certain toll point their account is debited or charged.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: Evolving]
    #1506133 - 04/29/03 11:42 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

That'd be fine I suppose. Businesses would complain about it and may circumvent interstate traffic with increased rail traffic and other forms of mass transport. The burden still comes down on the general public paying for system in the form of price increases on pretty much all goods. No biggie really, though I certainly would be interested in seeing the difference in the cost to the public and whether one form is actually higher.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1506792 - 04/30/03 06:06 AM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Businesses would complain about it and may circumvent interstate traffic with increased rail traffic and other forms of mass transport.



Sounds like a lefties dream come true.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Libertarians vs Republicans [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1507353 - 04/30/03 01:04 PM (18 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Businesses would complain about it and may circumvent interstate traffic with increased rail traffic and other forms of mass transport.



Sounds like a lefties dream come true.



For once, I agree. If it would, in fact, increase the use of mass transit, thus cutting down on pollution, then I would be all for it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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