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 DreaMaTrix
Shaman I am
Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 3,125
Loc: Falling into place
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 Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? 
#704632 - 06/27/02 05:22 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Found an interesting article on spore survival in space:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=7089
This gives backup to McKenna's panspermia theory, the theory of mushroom spores travelling in space, and also being an interplanetary species.
His theories on psilocybe spores if I remember correctly:
The spore is small and light enough to escape the gravity of a planet, and be swept by space currents.
The casings (shell) of psilocybe spores is the hardest organic compound to exist in nature.
The colour of the 'shell' is a hue of purple which would allow the spore to 'deflect' UV light from the sun and other stars.
Any thoughts in the discussion of this?
Good luck
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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#704850 - 06/27/02 07:17 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi DreaMaTrix,
Spores are from Earth. Every living thing on this planet basically reproduces in a similar manner. This would tell one that we are all from the same space in time. The Earth!
As for spores coming from outer space, my son, at 11-years-old, told me that, " Daddy, we are already in the middle of outer space."
However again I reiterate, we are all from here and so are the spores.
mj
This is just my opinion.
McKenna smoked too much dmt/
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 stealth_bird
newbie
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 33
Last seen: 21 years, 3 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#704895 - 06/27/02 07:37 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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it sounds like a valid theory to me
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Mystical_Craven
mentally illpsychonaught
Registered: 06/16/02
Posts: 439
Loc: Earth
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 Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#704991 - 06/27/02 08:21 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, I say if someone makes a cool flash video about something, then it must be true. Check out http://www.elftrance.com to see what I mean. (after the initial intro just click on the little monkey dude that sez "Phase 2 Evolution")
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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot
Edited by Mystical_Craven (06/27/02 08:28 AM)
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Roger_irrelevant
War's boring,change thechannel!
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 668
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? *DELETED* [Re: mjshroomer]
#705067 - 06/27/02 08:46 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams...
Edited by Roger_irrelevant (06/28/02 01:59 AM)
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perplexed
member
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: Roger_irrelevant]
#705105 - 06/27/02 09:03 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
However again I reiterate, we are all from here and so are the spores.
Actualy the atoms that we are made up from originate from stars throughout the universe. We are all NOT from here.
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why
journeyman
Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 50
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: Roger_irrelevant]
#705306 - 06/27/02 10:27 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Even if they did come from outer space, the really crazy thing that they suggest is that they are an intelligent lifeform. I'm fairly certain that magic mushrooms aren't a higher dimensional alien.
McKenna's books are a good read but he never claimed them to be gospel truth. he said his ideas were bizarre speculation.
if you want to believe that shrooms are some kind of super conscious alien with an ecological message for humanity then that is fine. It is a matter of faith, there is zero evidence for it.
whether or not stamets has been at the DMT, it's still a very strange opinion to hold.
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deepr
the dancer
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: why]
#705665 - 06/27/02 01:04 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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this is an interesting hypothesis... say the meteor that could have wiped out the dinosaurs... it would have to be large... spore survival could be increased through large dimensions enabling the meteor to travel through space for an increased period... maybe originating from the distant planet Psykodel, an evolutionarily refined psychedelic planet... or maybe not...
does anyone here have any theories as to the reinforcement of psilocybin in natural selection? maybe this powerful chemical did indeed come from another planet where fellow carbon based organisms looked into the future and decided to help us, so they sent a long range meteor to wipe out the predator based ecosystem, so as we could evolve and extend communication with them...
just to keep us on the right track they laced the meteor with psilocybin spores, specially adapted to suit life on this planet...
any thoughts psyconauts?
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DreaMaTrix
Shaman I am
Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 3,125
Loc: Falling into place
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: deepr]
#705714 - 06/27/02 01:24 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Spores are from Earth. Every living thing on this planet basically reproduces in a similar manner. This would tell one that we are all from the same space in time. The Earth!
This doesn't mean the spores cannot travel through space and fruit on a planet with a similar eco-system to our own. If they do originate on Earth, then they could spread through the galaxy, the spores withstand it. This is an excellent advantage.
In reply to:
Well, I say if someone makes a cool flash video about something, then it must be true. Check out http://www.elftrance.com to see what I mean. (after the initial intro just click on the little monkey dude that sez "Phase 2 Evolution")
Yeah I saw that, its excellent!
In reply to:
Doesn't Paul stamets have the same opinion?
I can't get that off that site, could someone outline his idea's for me?
In reply to:
Even if they did come from outer space, the really crazy thing that they suggest is that they are an intelligent lifeform. I'm fairly certain that magic mushrooms aren't a higher dimensional alien.
McKenna also pointed out that mycelium , in its natural environment, and covering acres of habitat, has more connections than the human brain.
In reply to:
does anyone here have any theories as to the reinforcement of psilocybin in natural selection?
Good post.. As for the role of psilocybin in natural selection, it aids the mushroom in only one way ------> symbiosis with humans. We nurture the shroom, care for it and spread it. Without straying from the topic of the original post, check this out from the reprint of the grow book by O.T.Oss and O.NoEric (sp?):
Once one has actually grown the mushroom, it becomes
obvious that the mushroom uses the same strategy
whether it is enveloping a petri dish or a society. A tiny
part breaks away from the main body, it becomes a new
center of radiative growth that expands until it reaches a
critical limit, then it too spawns break-away particles
with a life of their own. By this process?normally involv-
ing spores, but in cultivation involving propagation of
mycelial strains, and on another level involving the teach-
ing of cultivation techniques by one person to another?
the mushroom makes its way in the world.
This implies an analogy: That knowledge of how to cul-
tivate is spreading through society in the same way that
the mycelium spreads through rye in a jar or a bed of com-
post. There is an apocalyptic corollary: When the tech-
nique is ubiquitous in society, ?fruiting? will occur,
meaning the real power and import of humanity?s rela-
tionship to the mushroom will be suddenly revealed.
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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#705758 - 06/27/02 01:49 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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ya, fungi have too much in common with the other eukaryote organisms (animals, plants, protists) to be aliens  ...
see margulis & sagan _microcosmos_ to see how the prokaryotes transformed the earth long before the eukaryotes arrived on the scene (from symbiotic collections of specialized prokaryotes (bacteria & allies) ...
panspermia.... wel, bacteria (& maybe viruses) are more likely candidates for interstellar drifting...)
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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deepr
the dancer
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: gnrm23]
#705947 - 06/27/02 03:38 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
ya, fungi have too much in common with the other eukaryote organisms (animals, plants, protists) to be aliens
aliens dont necessarily have to be organisms with an entirely different base and structure, once nature has learned evolutionary economy, she rarely strays from its path...
take the octupus and the squid for example, they evolved totally independent of verterbrates, yet they still evolved eyes to see with, two of them just like us... albeit they function in a more efficient manner by receiving light from the front of the eye, rather than upside down at the back....
bats evolved totally seperate from birds, yet they still fly with wings, they just do it in a slightly different way...
my point is that since life as we know it can only occur on planets with 'earth-like' conditions, then there are going to be some interesting parallels..
how do you think advanced bacterial entities like fungus on other planets with a similar climate, atmosphere and gravitational pull would be constructed? my guess is that they could evolve a lot like our own advanced molds... and i see no reason as to why they could not have formed elsewhere...
remember we're aliens as well to other lifeforms..
you say that psilocybin has no selection advantages other than human intervention... then how did they proliferate over the world before human intervention, and why not to a greater extent, is it just a chemical overlap? is it something that hasn't been realised yet... or are they really from outer space ;]
peace
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dirk gently
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 414
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: deepr]
#706809 - 06/27/02 09:49 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Some cool mckenna theories here. (that flash elftrance site is cool!)
The mushroom spore panspermia theory (or other for that matter) can be disproved by looking at the mushroom genome. It is far too similar to all other species on the planet. The odds that something extraterrestrial would have a genome that would match lifeforms here are next to none. (unless intentionally engineered by intelligent aliens). We can also tell from the genetic record that there has never been any extraterrestial lifeform to breed with terrestial life and every organism to ever live here has evolved from the same proto-bacteria.
The mushroom and evolution is another mckenna topic. The first point is that psilocybin does not have any known role for the mushroom to live and/ or breed. It is also actively produced, consuming energy in its biosynthesis. From an evolutionary stance, the production of psilocybin must have been a desirable trait for some period of time in the past. Maybe it was an antibiotic, for example. Humans would not be a factor in this trait selection because they weren't around yet.
And then theres the flipside theory.
Did intellegince in primates develop with the help of psilocybin? McKenna quotes a few scenarios where this could be imagined anyway. Mostly a bit hard to believe, but interesting anyway.
(btw: again with the oversized links and the thread formatting. maybe a mod could fix that post?)
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Shroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...
Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: why]
#706889 - 06/27/02 11:04 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Two things I wanna comment on other people's posts...
"aliens dont necessarily have to be organisms with an entirely different base and structure" - WELL PUT!
"if you want to believe that shrooms are some kind of super conscious alien with an ecological message for humanity then that is fine. It is a matter of faith, there is zero evidence for it."
There is little evidence for anything humans believe in regards to faith, so anything is possible.
This is a very interesting theory and IMO it very well could be true because spores could travel in outter space. Also they certaintly seem to be conveying a specfic message to us all, don't they. I don't know what Psilicybin is in terms of it's spiritual qualities but my guess is it's from Earth. Personally, I don't see anymore reason to be believe Shroom's came from outter space than any other plant form. Hell, maybe ALL plants came from a medeor...since nobody was there we don't actually know for sure. Any theory is a good theory by virtue of it being a question, IMO...
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Shroomalicious -  I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi
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Roger_irrelevant
War's boring,change thechannel!
Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 668
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: dirk gently]
#706991 - 06/28/02 02:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorted
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We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams...
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DreaMaTrix
Shaman I am
Registered: 02/11/02
Posts: 3,125
Loc: Falling into place
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: dirk gently]
#707015 - 06/28/02 02:45 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
It is far too similar to all other species on the planet. The odds that something extraterrestrial would have a genome that would match lifeforms here are next to none.
Its not a giant leap of faith to believe that the evolutionary laws of nature govern not just this planet, but all planets and indeed the whole solar system. If everything in the universe did emanate from a 'big bang', from one source, then its highly probable that other planets with similar atmospheres follow the same evolution laws. Take the archetype we have of alien visitors, 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes.... very huminoid and almost identical to humans.
In reply to:
From an evolutionary stance, the production of psilocybin must have been a desirable trait for some period of time in the past. Maybe it was an antibiotic, for example. Humans would not be a factor in this trait selection because they weren't around yet.
But they are around now, and for a substance so desirable to be produced by an organism, means that organism is held in higher regard and is now probably the most popular mushroom on the planet. I don't agree that they produce psilocybin just because humans came along,and they probably could exist none the less without producing psilocybin (as do other mushrooms, even extremely poisonous ones) but for them to produce it, gives them a chance for symbiosis with higher intelligence animals. Thus giveing them a more than the natural degree of propogation.
In reply to:
And then theres the flipside theory.
Did intellegince in primates develop with the help of psilocybin? McKenna quotes a few scenarios where this could be imagined anyway. Mostly a bit hard to believe, but interesting anyway.
I wonder, was Bill Hicks a McKenna fan?
Good luck
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"We are the one's we have been waiting for" - Hopi saying
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dirk gently
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/99
Posts: 414
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#707562 - 06/28/02 09:13 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In reply to:
If everything in the universe did emanate from a 'big bang', from one source, then its highly probable that other planets with similar atmospheres follow the same evolution laws.
Yeah, thats true to some extent. I just don't think life would evolve in exactly the same way. The point was that all life on earth has a genetic signature consistent with it being related to everything else here. An alien lifeform would almost certainly look distinct on the genetic level because it evolved somewhere else. If only because of the randomness being multiplied through evolution. It may or may not have similar physical characteristics.
In reply to:
But they are around now, and for a substance so desirable to be produced by an organism, means that organism is held in higher regard and is now probably the most popular mushroom on the planet.
It may be that psilocybin does have a simple purpose for the mushroom. We just don't know what it is. What is THC's role in cannabis, for example? I've heard that is maybe an insect repellant.
(sorry to bitch about that link... thanks for shortening it. much better.)
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trendal
J♠
 
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#707941 - 06/28/02 12:10 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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"The spore is small and light enough to escape the gravity of a planet, and be swept by space currents."
I doubt that. A fungal spore is many many times greater than an O2 molecule, and even they are heavy enough to be held to the Earth by gravity.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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deepr
the dancer
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: trendal]
#708276 - 06/28/02 03:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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every day particles from outer space get through the atmosphere and fall on earth... approximately 1 speck of space dust per square meter of earth per day...
and it doesnt matter wether spores can escape earths gravitational pull.. they can already penetrate our atmosphere from above... it matters wether they can escape another planets atmoshpere in order to arrive here
..
lets say that mushrooms are from another planet, this planet would have to have some degree of weak gravitational pull, otherwise mushrooms wouldn't be designed with gravity in mind, they wouldn't intend to drop spores onto the ground because they'd just float off into the air without reproducing. Although if this planet had a weak gravitational pull, this would mean that some spores could reach the ground although many would float farther afield, thus making it easier for spores to escape the atmosphere and make their way to distant possible worlds...
for this to occur, the mushroom would need to drop a large amount of spores, so as to ensure reproduction and survival on the host planet... this procedure is evident in earths fungal entities, but is surely an evolutionary expensive task for our conditions? why does a mushroom need to drop millions of spores in order to ensure survival? why not invest in quality? this can point to a flaw in the simplicity of evolution, or it can point to a process ingrained in the genetic code of mushrooms on earth, stable from selection, derived from the condtions of a foreign environment light years away......
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dirk gently
enthusiast
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Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: deepr]
#709729 - 06/28/02 09:27 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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This paragraph sums up the theory pretty well.
"Is it possible that these mushrooms never evolved on earth? That is what the Stropharia cubensis itself suggests. Global currents may form on the outside of the spore. The spores are very light and by Brownian motion are capable of percolation to the edge if the planet's atmosphere. Then, through interaction with energetic particles, some small number could actually escape into space. Understand that this is an evolutionary strategy where only one in many billions of spores actually makes the transition between the stars - a biological strategy for radiating throughout the galaxy without a technology. Of course this happens over very long periods of time. But if you think that the galaxy is roughly 100,000 light-years from edge to edge, if something were moving only one one-hundredth the speed of light - now that's not a tremendous speed that presents problems to any advanced technology - it could cross the galaxy in one hundred million years. There's life on this planet 1.8 billion years old; that's eighteen times longer than one hundred million years. So, looking at the galaxy on those time scales, one sees that the percolation of spores between the stars is a perfectly viable strategy for biology. It might take millions of years, but it's the same principle by which plants migrate into a desert or across an ocean." -Terence McKenna
See more of that talk here.
'The mushroom states its own position very clearly. It says, "I require the nervous system of a mammal. Do you have one handy?"'
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deepr
the dancer
Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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 Re: Mushrooms - Interplanetary species? [Re: dirk gently]
#709963 - 06/28/02 11:08 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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with this rational... then it is perfectly logical that life could have initiated itself from alien prokaryotic bacteria...
I was informed recently that scientists have predicted that the odds of life initially forming on earth are now as high as 1 in 3... does anyone have any information on this? this seems a bold claim and a giant leap from the traditional thereom that it is a near impossibility.. im not sure if this new evolution tek is based on the amino acid production of lightning through water..
i didnt take the claim seriously at the time, but it would be interesting to know...
what reason would psilocybin spores have to contain an extremely tough outer casing... (apart from intergalactic travel ;] ) and how does psilocybin benefit these mushrooms... especially in varieties that produce a large amount? these are interesting questions, and even if they did originate from outer space, they still are favored by natural selection on earth to produce the psychoactive chemicals... there must be a reason...
peace
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