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Offlinemrhappy
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right?
    #542384 - 02/06/02 01:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Most of my limited knowledge comes from reading, so it would be no suprise if I'm not even close to being right, but the Dose Calculator on the shroomery home site seems kind of off. For example, for a level 3 trip on perfectly dried (no psilocybin/psilocin degredation) P. Azurescens shrooms, they recommend 1.15 grams. This seems about right, but they're claiming that each gram of this stuff contains 95mg(!) of psilocybin and 35 of psilocin, for a total of 150 freaking milligrams of psilocybin/psilocin in the 1.15 g dose!! It seems to me that the concentrations they have listed for both wet and dry mushies are about 10 times too high thus making the milligram dosages also 10 times too high. Am I right or can someone gently explain to me how to pull my head out of my ass? I mean, I thought 20 mg of pure psilocybin made for a purty damned strong trip, with 30 mg being close to saturation levels with most folks--but they're talking 50 mg for level 1! Also, a minor point: I've read on other sites that although on a molecule for molecule basis, pilocybin and psilocin are of equivalent potency because the body converts psilocybin to psilocin, the psilocybin molecule has about 1.39 times the molecular mass of psilocybin--thus making the psilocin about 1.39 times stronger than psilocybin on a gram for gram basis. The calculator ignores that issue as well. Is that because this thinking is flawed?


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OfflinePsyFlux
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #542421 - 02/06/02 01:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Have you been altering the detoriation rate for psilocybin and psilocin in dried mushrooms? Since the values for fresh P. Azurescens are 9.5 and 3.5mg. If you would set the detoriation rate for both at 1 and then select dried mushrooms, you would simply multiply by ten for the amount of water lost. You however don't calculate the amount of psilocybin and psilocin that is lost due to the high temperatures when drying mushrooms!

Another thing you say is that the calculator ignores that a molecule of psilocybin is heavier then psilocin. However, the calculator doesn't use the amount of molecules (mol) but milligram! So 1 milligram of psilocin are more molecules than 1 milligram of psilocybin and the calculator already uses that fact since it calculates in weight, not the amount of molecules!

I don't exactly know how much psilocybin and/or psilocin are a high or normal dose for an average person. But the values for the amount of those two chemicals in mushrooms are straight from the FAQ. And I guess those values are from a scientific source. So I think they are pretty accurate... the inaccurate things about the calculator are how much water is lost and how much psilocybin and psilocin deteriorates when drying. And above all how sensitive you are to those molecules. But I don't doubt the values for psilocybin and psilocin in fresh mushrooms.

Besides, I've found the calculator to be very exact most of the times! The only flaw I encountered is for Psilocybe Cyanescens. In my opinion the Cyanescens is much stronger since I can get a level 3 trip on 1 dry gram already. Although I'm not overly sensitive to mushrooms since the calculated dosages for Psilocybe Cubensis seem to be extremely precise.

I hope I made myself clear, since I'm not that good in English :smile:


Edited by PsyFlux (02/06/02 01:45 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #542428 - 02/06/02 01:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, I'll try and answer as many as I can, here.

Erowid lists the following strengths for P. Azurescens:
1.78% - Psilocybin
0.38% - Psilocin

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_info4.shtml

That's 17.8mg psilocybin and 3.8mg psilocin per gram of mushroom. I'm assuming those percentages are for fresh mushrooms. Not sure how the calculator comes up with 95mg and 35mg. If you convert the weight of psiolcin into weight of psilocybin, you end up with about 22.5mg of psilocybin per gram of mushroom. Erowid lists anything above 20mg as a heavy dose, so one gram of P. Azurescens is a heavy dose.

I could be completely wrong in all that.


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Offlinemrhappy
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Loc: Illinois
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: trendal]
    #542518 - 02/06/02 02:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I looked at the same chart you did for alkaloid levels and saw, as you did, that for P. Azurescens, they list it like this:
psilocybin: 1.78%
psilocin : 0.38%
baeocystin: 0.35%, just as you reported. However, I think I have to disagree with your assumption that those were the percentages of fresh mushrooms--not the dry weights. I think those are the percentages of those alkaloids in the dry mycelial tissue because, otherwise (with the happy assumption of no alkaloid loss in drying) you'd have percentages of 17.8, 3.8, and 3.5 respectively for the active alkaloids in the dry material. It just seems extremely optimistic to assume that 25% of the dry weight of shrooms is active alkaloids, and that you can get basically 25% pure psilocybin/psilocin/baeocystin without any extraction more complicated than drying. About a tenth of that seems more reasonable. Again, could be waaaaaaayy wrong.

"Wasn't lookin' too good, but I wa feelin' real well."


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OfflineRoger_irrelevant
War's boring,change thechannel!

Registered: 11/22/01
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? *DELETED* [Re: mrhappy]
    #542780 - 02/06/02 07:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Roger_irrelevant

Reason for deletion: archive



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: Roger_irrelevant]
    #543724 - 02/07/02 03:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

>Dry 57milligrams of psilocybin per gram
>Fresh 9.5milligrams of psilocybin per gram

Have to remember that while the percentage of the chemicals in mushrooms goes up with drying, the mass of the chems stays relatively the same.

Drying simply removes the water (or should). Yes there will be SOME degredation of the chems, but most of the loss is water.

If there are 9.5mg psilocybin per gram of fresh mushrooms, there will be about 9.5mg psilocybin per gram after drying.


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OfflinePsyFlux
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: trendal]
    #543792 - 02/07/02 04:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

water has mass as well you know...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: PsyFlux]
    #544936 - 02/08/02 04:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Damnit. I need to stop posting stuff while I'm high.


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Offlinemrhappy
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: trendal]
    #569865 - 03/04/02 09:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry to be a dumbass, but I'm still missing something big here. If, for example, you tell the calculator that you want a level 5 trip on fresh P. Cubensis, they reccomend 36+ grams of fresh material. I don't know if that's right or not, but that's not my issue here. The calculator claims that fresh cubies contain 8 mg of psilocybin and .5 mg psilocin per gram. If you multiply that out (36*8.5~310 mg of psilocybin/psilocin)--310 FUCKING MILLIGRAMS!? OF PURE FUCKING PSILOCYBIN/PSILOCIN!? I thought a good "average" trip was betweem 10 and 15 mg of pure actives. A really fucking heroic dose was (according to my understanding) about 30 mg. 310 sounds good for mescaline, sure, but for psilo it sounds like fucking suicide to me. I'm sure I'll have to kick my stupid ass when some patient soul explains to me what I'm doing wrong this time--but that's alright, I'm used to it.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/22/99
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #570408 - 03/05/02 12:01 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The quantity of psilocybine and psilocine in certain species of mushrooms (notably some Psilocybe and Panaeolus species) is amazingly high, sometimes well in access of 1% dry weight, and typically 0.2 t0 1%. IT is interesting to speculate how and why the mushroom plant expends so much biosynthetic energy to produce a compound of no known obvious use to the plant itself. From the standpoint of the mushroom user, the high level of psilocybine and psilocine means that the mushrooms are potent in crude form without prior isolation or concentration of the active ingredients.

From the standpoint of the chemist, the high levels similarly means that psilocybine and psilocine can be analysed in the crude extracts, without lengthy (and probably expensive) prior separation and concentration. This also means that forensic chemists can quickly and cheaply do the analysis for the prosecution (or defense) in a court case. The picture becomes clouded (beyond the legal implications) when the chemical analyses are complete. A given sample of one known hallucinogenic species is often found to be over ten times as potent as a given sample of another hallucinogenic species. To put it mildly, this could lead to a real surprise for the unwary user. So it would seem that the answer is to discover the potency of one species compared to another. Even There, the answer is disturbing because when samples of the same species from different areas are compared, the amounts of psilocybine and psilocine are found to differ by a factor of 4 or more (Psilocybine and psilocine are sometimes absent altogether in a normally active species). Maybe the answer is to stick to one patch of mushrooms. It turns out that here, too, problems arise. When mushrooms from one patch are sampled from time to time, the levels of psilocybine and psilocine are still found to vary by about a factor of 4 (sometimes more). Well, maybe you can rely on cultivated hallucinogenic species like Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer.

When analyzing samples from various sources we found 6-fold variations among the street samples, with some species only one-tenth as potent to some of our cultivated material. One might at this point be temped to conclude that cultivation of your own strain might be the answer. Working with reproducibly grown mushrooms of a single strain, we found variations of nearly threefold from one flush to another and from one culture to the next. The only consistent trend we found was that the first flush, while it often contained high levels of psilocybine, almost never contained any psilocine. The same was found to be true in mushrooms cultivated by others. However, there was no reproducible trend in total amount (Psilocybine and psilocine) from flush to flush. The inescapable conclusion is that when dealing with wild mushrooms or cultivated mushrooms it is not possible to predict that psilocybine and psilocine level with any accuracy. A user of mushrooms is thus hard pressed to predict dosage.

mj

I should point out that various diffenet specie sof magic shrooms contain diffenet amounts of chemicals. Cubensis generallrequire form one to five grams dried and up to one fresh ounce or more to be equivalent to a Mazatc Ceremonial dosage.

Most humans (Westerners) require formone to two grams of dried cubies. That is the average limit of intoxication amongs ludible users in the world.

Liberty caps can take from one to two grams dried or from a third of a fresh ounce to a half at the most.

My real first trip, My wife and I consumed between 50 to 60 fresh shrooms weighing about one fresh ounce.

WE saw what Wason saw, and it was good.

Panaeolus subbalteatus takes about three to five dried grams and one or more fresh ounces.

P. stuntzii and P. fimetaria take 20 to 40 shrooms fresh and from one to three grams dried.

P. cyanescens can get anywhere from one to ten hits in a dried gram or one to three fresh small shrooms or one large shroom weighing 1/4th of an ounce fresh.

Have a shroomy da and remember, it is better to eat a few more at first then a whole lot later on.

mj again and again and again.


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Offlinemrhappy
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #570495 - 03/05/02 01:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you for your help--but I'm still confused. I understand about the frustrating variability of alkaloid levels (it seems even worse with mescaline bearing cacti and DMT bearing plants)--that's annoying, but I can understand it. What's really messing with me here is this: the dosage caclulator breaks it down like this for fresh cubies: level 1-5.9 g, level 2-10 g, level 3-17.6 g, level 4-27 g, and level 5-36 g. With the numbers that the calculator says it's using for psilocybin and psilocin (8 mg and .5 mg per fresh gram, respectively) content in fresh cubensis, that translates to combined psilocybin/psilocin totals of: level 1-50 mg, level 2- 85 mg, level 3-150 mg, level 4- 230 mg, and level 5-310 mg. Those amounts, unless I'm waaay wrong, are about 10 times too high--I thought threshold was about 5 mg, decent, "average" trip about 10 mg (remember, I'm talking amounts of pure psilocybin/psilocin here--which for simplicity, I'm treating interchangeably), 15 mg for a strong trip, and 30 mg if you think sanity is overrated. What's up??!


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #570555 - 03/05/02 03:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I believe the guide is fucked up.

Clinical dosages of Psilocybine are from 10 - 30 mgs per dosage or thre to five dried grams of in vitro or from naturally occurring specimens of P. cubensis.

That could be anywhere from one to fifty mushrooms weighing up to one fresh ounce or a little more. That is pretty simple/ But that chart is wrong in its dosage.

Indians do not weigh the mushrooms, unless they are dealing them and that is doubtful, although Mexicans sell them to tourists and some poor Indians as well.

mj

T


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Offlinemrhappy
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #570682 - 03/05/02 06:19 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks--I thought I was going bug shit, and much worse--losing all my mathematical literacy. I hope they fix that thing--who do we tell about it? Thanks again...


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #571147 - 03/06/02 03:28 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The amounts of psilocybin and psilocin per gram are obviously off by a factor of 10 (10 times to high)

Still the calculated gram value seems reeasonable. The author must have used the correct values in the formula.


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Offlinemrhappy
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: Anno]
    #571362 - 03/06/02 10:23 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks--so you're saying that both the psilocybin/psilocin content and the pilocybin/psilocin dosage are high by a factor of 10, so that the amount of mushrooms to ingest actually comes out about right--right? Anyway, that's what I thought, but as dumb as I am, I'm at least smart enough not to trust my intellect. Thanks again.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #571445 - 03/06/02 12:15 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I should mention that I as the first person to give dosage levels for mushrooms in both of my books. In Magic Mushrooms of the Pacific Northwest published first in 1976 and then my second book, a poster first (1978) then in 1979 a set of 80 cards and then in 1981 a complete 80 page booklet now online at eriwid "Safe-Pik Mushroom Identification Guide." This one also gives dosages for shrooms picked inthe Pacific Northwest.

mj


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Offlinemrhappy
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Loc: Illinois
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #571547 - 03/06/02 02:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Wow--I'm impressed. Thanks for the info--I'll be heading over to Erowid to take a gander at that right away. Thanks again, and that's really cool...


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #571728 - 03/06/02 06:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The dosage calculator is fixed now and should show correct psilocybin and psilocin contents.
The change has no effect on the caclulated amount of mushrooms, this was correct before already.

Off course, results of such calculations are to be taken with a grain of salt.......




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Offlinemrhappy
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Loc: Illinois
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: Anno]
    #571745 - 03/06/02 07:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, fast work!
Didn't mean to come across as a complainer--I was just genuinely confused (and few can master genuine confusion like I experience it). What I mean is, I never in any way intended to criticize the site, or the Dosage Calculator--I'm extremely grateful that this precious information resource is available. Anyway, thanks for bringin' a dumbass up to speed (on one small aspect, anyway).


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"I wasn't lookin' too good, but I was feelin' real well"


Edited by mrhappy (03/06/02 07:46 PM)


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Is magic mushroom dosage calculator right? [Re: mrhappy]
    #573174 - 03/08/02 03:56 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Glad it was brought up, I don't think anyone noticed this before..

Good eye :smile:


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