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InvisibleCLuB99
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Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68249 - 12/12/99 07:42 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Ask B.I.O. for this...
He knows a lot about sclerotia...


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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68251 - 12/12/99 01:16 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

AFOAF (in Amsterdam) has fair success with tampanensis.

So far the best grain for him is annual rye grass seed (not rye grain). He gets it at the local health food store where it is sold for human consumption??. Seed for planting has fungicides on it a lot of the time. He soaks it overnight, then simmers it for twenty minutes, drains excess water and fluffs, loads it into the jars still hot, and sterilizes 45 minutes @ 15psi. He's tried whole grain brown rice and rye grain, neither work as good as rye grass for him. He's trying out an arrowroot flour "pudding" substrate for sclerotia production, doesn't know if it's working yet or not.

He fills the jars about 1/2 full. He innoculates with a mycelium syringe. He generally shakes em up once 5-6 days after innoculation, then puts the jars away in the dark for 6 weeks. A good jar yields 10 grams wet/3grams dry from 1 cup wet grass seed.

Here is a couple pics. The first pic is a "sclerotia jar cap". The inoculation hole is covered with a blob of high temp. silicone sealant. The needle pokes through it easily, it reseals when the needle is pulled out. The floss provides about the right amount of air exchange. Just tighten the cap down and sterilize, the pressure will equalize through the floss. Swab the blob with alcohol right before jabbing the needle though. With this cap it is never necessary to expose the substrate to contaminated air at all.

^^^ Doktor Dung's sclerotia cap, patent pending ^^^

To make mycelium water for innoculation He uses a blender ala 9er tek and uses a sclerotia for mycelium source. He sterilely peels the outside layer off, blends and innoculates. You can get the process started with sporewater inoculation to obtain your first sclerotia. Just a couple drops of spore solution per jar gets it going. Since the jars can be shaken, there is no advantage to a massive innoculation, it's wasteful.

The sclerotia form across the surface of the colonized grass seed and seem to especially like to form at the jar edge against the glass. Tampanensis will fruit directly without forming sclerotia, but the sclerotia can be cased and induced to send up little clusters of shrooms. Only reason to fruit it is for spores, the fruits don't weigh anything much. The production is in sclerotia in this species.


^Sclerotia, approx. life size....... ^Cased sclerotia fruiting

Sclerotia form easily, much easier than getting tampanensis to fruit. The only important warning is to keep them in the dark, no peeking. I actually think that for a newbie, growing sclerotia would be easier than growing cubensis fruits, given a source for a clean spore syringe ( product hint for Workman :uploads/capsmall.JPG
^^^ Doktor Dung's sclerotia cap, patent pending ^^^

To make mycelium water for innoculation He uses a blender ala 9er tek and uses a sclerotia for mycelium source. He sterilely peels the outside layer off, blends and innoculates. You can get the process started with sporewater inoculation to obtain your first sclerotia. Just a couple drops of spore solution per jar gets it going. Since the jars can be shaken, there is no advantage to a massive innoculation, it's wasteful.

The sclerotia form across the surface of the colonized grass seed and seem to especially like to form at the jar edge against the glass. Tampanensis will fruit directly without forming sclerotia, but the sclerotia can be cased and induced to send up little clusters of shrooms. Only reason to fruit it is for spores, the fruits don't weigh anything much. The production is in sclerotia in this species.


^Sclerotia, approx. life size....... ^Cased sclerotia fruiting

Sclerotia form easily, much easier than getting tampanensis to fruit. The only important warning is to keep them in the dark, no peeking. I actually think that for a newbie, growing sclerotia would be easier than growing cubensis fruits, given a source for a clean spore syringe ( product hint for Workman
^^^ Doktor Dung's sclerotia cap, patent pending ^^^

To make mycelium water for innoculation He uses a blender ala 9er tek and uses a sclerotia for mycelium source. He sterilely peels the outside layer off, blends and innoculates. You can get the process started with sporewater inoculation to obtain your first sclerotia. Just a couple drops of spore solution per jar gets it going. Since the jars can be shaken, there is no advantage to a massive innoculation, it's wasteful.

The sclerotia form across the surface of the colonized grass seed and seem to especially like to form at the jar edge against the glass. Tampanensis will fruit directly without forming sclerotia, but the sclerotia can be cased and induced to send up little clusters of shrooms. Only reason to fruit it is for spores, the fruits don't weigh anything much. The production is in sclerotia in this species.


^Sclerotia, approx. life size....... ^Cased sclerotia fruiting

Sclerotia form easily, much easier than getting tampanensis to fruit. The only important warning is to keep them in the dark, no peeking. I actually think that for a newbie, growing sclerotia would be easier than growing cubensis fruits, given a source for a clean spore syringe ( product hint for Workman ). It takes longer than cubensis, but requires no terrarrium set-up. Since the jars are never opened before harvest, the chances of contamination are greatly reduced. Only drawbacks are the lack of sources for pre-made sterile spore syringes and the cost of spores. Both are understandable though, due to the difficulty in getting it to fruit, and the small prints it makes when it does. Making clean mycelium water innoculant is a moderately difficult job, but can keep the process going for along time without additional spores.

BTW, I would really like to obtain a print (not a culture) of Ps. mexicana and Conocybe cyanopus . I would be really thankful to be pointed towards a good source. Have good trades or $ :smile:


[This message has been disavowed by Doktor Dung on December 12, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doktor Dung (edited December 12, 1999).]



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68252 - 12/12/99 09:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent response...Thank You.

------------------
Peace, Love & Light



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OfflineB.I.O.
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Registered: 05/27/99
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Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68253 - 12/12/99 11:32 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

theres nothing i could add....

we are witing for some mex to plopp out of a jar....already cased....we ll see if they fruit

god luck

BiO.



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68254 - 12/13/99 04:33 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Anyone with an opinion on JLF tampanensis spore syringe? Are they okay?
I got burned by JLF a couple years ago when they were selling B+ as azures. Don't want to deal with them again unless somebody vouches for the product.

SYZ



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68255 - 12/13/99 06:16 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Why buy a spore syringe from JLF when you can get one from Workman at The Spore Works? He is very professional, specializes in shrooms, delivers promptly and is a supporter of the Shroomery. I've dealt with him on numerous occasions and have never had a problem with an order.

------------------
Peace, Love & Light



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OfflinePlacebo
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Registered: 12/16/98
Posts: 55
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Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68256 - 12/13/99 09:05 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent post, Doktor! I have one question, though. What is the dosage for Tampanensis sclerotia like? I know that tamps have a lower concentration of alkaloids than cubensis, but I have yet to see figures on exactly how potent they are.

Good luck trying to find a Conocybe Cyanopus print, by the way. And don't forget to drop me a line if you do! :smile:



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68257 - 12/14/99 11:36 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I think that dried tamp. sclerotia is about as potent as very good quality dried cubies.
They are a little different in effect though. "Stones" are alot smoother and mellow when they first come on. Cubies come on too speedy/twitchy to me, which I don't like but some probably do. Personal preference, but I haven't eaten any cubies in a couple years. 2 grams of stones is a nice level 2-3 to me.

I also don't eat shrooms very often, only 3-4 times a year (for the last 20 years), and I don't do the big mind melts any more ( or ever again. :wink: ) I don't know if stones would be suitable for someone looking for a level 4-5 or not.

One important thing about stones is they are nearly indigestable. You have to crush them or run em through a coffee grinder, otherwise they "pass though" mostly wasted.

Stones seem most similar to liberty caps in effect, which is why I like them. Stones are my second favorite after liberty caps.

YMMV



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68258 - 12/14/99 02:14 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

was going to post pics but they needed to be bigger than the bb would allow.

exsqueeze me!!!

[This message has been edited by Shroom Mage (edited December 15, 1999).]



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68259 - 12/15/99 01:24 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I'm still curious if anyone has verified JLF's tampanensis syringe ?

I know workman is the reliable source, but I don't want to screw up a tiny $50 print making a syringe. Plus workman used to say on his page that the prints were not recommended for syringes. I've made cube syringes that worked before, how much harder is tampanensis ?

SYZ



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68260 - 12/15/99 03:17 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Doktor Dung, in the past I've tried a jar similar to the one you are showing with a stuffed cotton ball. I found that after shaking, though, the cotton would get damp then provide a liquid vector of contamination. This was the case with rye GRAIN at least. Any comments on that? Do you find that contamination sets in after shaking ever?

ShroomGod



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68261 - 12/15/99 04:54 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I guess I kinda glossed over my description, sorry.

I did have problems when I used cotton, not so much with contamination, but with wood lovers like shiitake and oysters "eating" the cotton filter. I don't use cotton anymore. The filter fuzz in the picture is aquarium filter floss, I think it's polyester. Any way, it is non bio-digestable, and holds much less mosture than cotton does. I haven't had any problems with it in quite a few trials. It's much cheaper than filter disks or even cotton too, $1.79 buys a lifetime supply at the local mega-mart pet department. It has another useful property in that it is meltable. I use a BIC lighter to "weld" it to the underside of the cap, being careful to not totally seal the fibres to air passage.



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68262 - 12/15/99 06:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Doktor Dung, that's the most interesting and cool thing I've read on the Shroomery for months! Thanks a ton, man! I am definitely going to use that idea!

ShroomGod



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68263 - 12/15/99 08:45 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Hey Doktor Dung:

What was the main difference you noticed between producing sclerotia (tamps) on rye grain verses rye seed? Yeild differences? Also did you have trouble with either substrate drying out too much? Rye grain has the ability to hold more moisture than seed...does this make much of a difference?

I fear that I may have trouble getting untreated rye seed locally. Do you know of a place on the web for it?

Several years ago I stopped using quart jars for colonizing my rye grain when cultivating and switched to gausetted bags from Fungi Perfecti. Since I use a flow hood my contam rate is well less than 1%. So I'm not worried about contaminating a large bag of inoculated grain...so my question is...is there any reason not to go with large gausetted bags...do you get larger yeilds per grain weight used by going with smaller containers or does it not matter.

Thanks for the input. I plan to inoculate several bags with tamps and several with p. mexicana in the next few days, your advice is very timely.

------------------
Peace, Love & Light



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68264 - 12/16/99 12:16 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

For tamps rye grass appears to me to yeild better than whole brown rice and rye grain.
The order I noticed is rye grass seed > brown rice > rye grain. The mycelium grows well on all three, but it doesn't "clump up" to start the stone formation process as well on brown rice and hardly at all on rye grain. Here is a poor quality pic of the "clump up" getting started on rye grass seed.

^^Sclerotia initiation Magnified
on rye grass seed

I'm sure you've read the gartz article at the lycaeum where he says "soft rice" works best for mexicana.

As far as a source for rye grass seed if you decide to go that way. Fungi perfecti used to carry it. It isn't in their online catalog anymore but they may have it if you call and ask.

As far as growing in filter patch bags I can only make a guess. I would guess that the mycelium will grow great. I would speculate that just letting it form sclerotia in the bags may not be the most efficient way. If I were trying that I would do some tests with the methods that morel growers use to induce sclerotia with screen barriers and deep casing layers (GGMM, Stamets). Reason being that stones seem to form best at the edges against the glass. In a large mass the ratio of edge/mass is much less. Of course, that could also just make for producing bigger stones, dunno.

Anyway, hope you have a good report in a month or two. I'm interested to hear how the mexicana compares in quantity and quality.

DD



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OfflinePlacebo
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Registered: 12/16/98
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Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68265 - 12/16/99 05:35 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Going back to the subject of filters for jar lids... I've been using this type of air filter on my quart jars for a while now, and I'll never go back to using filter discs. I got the idea from Workman, who has posted about them a couple of times. I use Polyfill, which is a polyester fuzz used for stuffing pillows and dolls. I found mine in the craft department of my local WalMart. Two dollars will buy you a bag big enough to last you your entire lifetime (really). Two dollars for a bag that can literally make you hundreds of filters is a pretty good deal compared to eleven or twelve bucks for only ten filter discs from FP. Since polyester doesn't hold water very well, I've never had any problems as a result of grain in the jar touching the filters. Here's a pic:



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Anonymous

Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68266 - 03/31/00 10:29 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Totally

Polyester fibre is perfect. If you still have contam problems then soak the fibre with a lidful of H2O2 until a few drops go into the jar. This seems to prevent any contamination and it provides some oxygen for the mycelium. You can repeat this after every shaking.

That silicone rubber injection seal idea is slick as you like!

Rad



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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Sclerotia Formation
    #68267 - 03/31/00 02:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Earlier I offered tampanensis with the warning that using syringes to try and grow them was risky. This was primarily because I had very few prints and I wanted only experienced growers to get them. That situation has changed and now each order contains several prints (2-5 depending on size and darkness) for several attempts with a syringe or the recommended agar. I know the price is steep but you get what you pay for. You can recoup some of the expense by breaking up the purchased prints and reselling them.

------------------
The Spore Works

[This message has been edited by Workman (edited March 31, 2000).]



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