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Offlineoptikal_trip
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Registered: 06/20/01
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Can mixing damage serotonin receptors?
    #640584 - 05/22/02 03:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hi,
I was just thinking about this today and a question popped into my head. Psilocin works by replacing serotonin in the brain (by attaching onto serotonin receptors). As do alot of tryptamine psychedelics, such as LSD for example. MDMA gives you the euphoric feeling by telling your brain to release more serotonin then it usually does. So now for my question:

If one were to mix mushrooms + LSD, mushrooms + MDMA, or LSD+MDMA or LSD+mushrooms+MDMA would these combinations not damage the receptors? I mean if these serotonin receptors are only used to taking small amounts of serotonin at a time and all of a sudden got mass amounts of serotonin plus Psilocin and plus LSD.... wouldnt this in one way or another damage them?

Like I said, I was just thinking about this today and decided to ask for some opinions on here... thanx


--------------------
They chopped her goddam head off right there in the parking lot. Then they cut all kinds of holes in her head and sucked the blood out. I think they were after the pineal gland.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: optikal_trip]
    #640622 - 05/22/02 04:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

maybe the receptors first come on a first serve basis. which ever one activatives it, gets it juices. And when all the seretonin gets depleted, the other ingridients do nothing untill more seritonin is manufactured of replaced, of the drugs exit the system.

I'm not a chemist or a brain... person. So what i have just said should not be accepted as fact. i'm only telling you what makes sense to me.


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Offlineshrooming_s3th
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Registered: 08/18/02
Posts: 44
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #4391599 - 07/11/05 08:04 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

all i know is pills and mushrooms or pills and acid is mad, but only if eating the psychedelic first cause thats how i did it, no idea how eatin a pill then the psychedelic goes, usually i find if im scat acid doesnt work. candy flipping makes you see alot more patterns and stuff, plus it elevates your mood so it can balance you out, sometimes taking any edge or paranoia out of the trip. peace


--------------------
chemical baby to pill freak all in 18 years!!!


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OfflineOakbear
Trust me, I'm anurse!
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Registered: 05/08/05
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: optikal_trip]
    #4391651 - 07/11/05 09:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

As a mental health nurse i think i have a reasonable understanding of serotonin's action, although apologise it is rather layman-like, and i'm sure some here have more knowledge.

Anyway, chemicals which replace serotonin can desensitise the receptors, as can large serotonin releases. This can sometimes leave people feeling a little depressed and blunted, but will usually wear off after a couple of days.
My Mrs gets this quite a bit after shrooms sometimes.
If serotonin release is accelerated, then in a similar vein, the production can be 'worn out', with similar effects.

Combining these things may accentuate this, but would depend on dosage, as well as personal neurophysiology and recovery rates. Probably not a huge deal really. Taking certain vitamins and supplements may aid serotonin recovery.

The only time i have seen what could termed 'damage' is in long term, very heavy e users, which can trigger long term depression.


--------------------
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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: optikal_trip]
    #4391723 - 07/11/05 09:58 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

optikal_trip said:
Hi,
I was just thinking about this today and a question popped into my head. Psilocin works by replacing serotonin in the brain (by attaching onto serotonin receptors). As do alot of tryptamine psychedelics, such as LSD for example. MDMA gives you the euphoric feeling by telling your brain to release more serotonin then it usually does. So now for my question:

If one were to mix mushrooms + LSD, mushrooms + MDMA, or LSD+MDMA  or LSD+mushrooms+MDMA  would these combinations not damage the receptors? I mean if these serotonin receptors are only used to taking small amounts of serotonin at a time and all of a sudden got mass amounts of serotonin plus Psilocin and plus LSD.... wouldnt this in one way or another damage them? 

Like I said, I was just thinking about this today and decided to ask for some opinions on here... thanx 




A novel idea (well,NOT) : Search the current hypothesis on "brain damage from MDMA" and how it is caused. Search also how MDMA works on the brain!

Very Very Very quick overwiew: MDMA causes massive release of serotonine reversing the way the serotonine transporter on the presynaptic membrane works. Dagame is hypothesized to occure when dopamine (due to absence of serotonine) gets carried in the presynaptic SEROTONIN button and is destroyed bey MAO enzymes releasing metabolites that attack the cell.... If im wrong correct me.

Now ,by putting a "serotonine" molecule in (a tryptamine based psychedelic) maybe one can occupy the trasported so no/less dopamine gets back where it shouldnt get and actually...well,think :smile:


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: Psiloman]
    #4391868 - 07/11/05 11:31 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That's a very interesting hypothesis. I don't know buckets about psychopharmacology, but I'm fairly certain it would depend on how strong of an agonist each chemical is.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineTheHook
GrEeN HeAd
Registered: 03/06/05
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: dblaney]
    #4392154 - 07/11/05 01:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The molly is where i see the real damage. mushrooms being natural and lsd being semi-synthetic allow your brain to have a smoother recovery but xtc will cause a lot of damage over extended use.
key word: extended

as for mixing them, it would make the most difference in what order you took them in. taking x first would give you a great serotonin rush but then may be cancelled out if you took mushrooms soon after. Im not entirely certain though since ive heard of a lot of people mixing that combo and saying it was great.


--------------------
I often come to many challenges and intimidations, but then I remember that you only live life once, one single time through, with no reruns or rehearsals. So just live the way you want and the best you can. Its easy.


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InvisibleIsaacHunt
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Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: dblaney]
    #4392157 - 07/11/05 01:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I imagine this is somewhat akin to sneezing and farting at the same time. Theoretically it can be dangerous, but the body always finds a way around it.

The brain will look after it's receptors.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: IsaacHunt]
    #4392301 - 07/11/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The molly is where i see the real damage. mushrooms being natural and lsd being semi-synthetic allow your brain to have a smoother recovery but xtc will cause a lot of damage over extended use.
key word: extended




Wrong. Although if a chemical exists in nature there are chances we might have evolved means to detoxify for it this is not always the case.There are purely synthetic molecules that the body has no problem to detoxify from and have a "smooth recovery" and there are natural molecules that your body cant detoxify from. Amanitotoxin is a perfect example! Nope, it kills you in a week from ingestion time because you cant "recover" from it,you cant "detoxify" and you suffer liver failure.Another scary molecule is Abrin,look it up...Its N-A-S-T-Y and natural.To tell you the truth the most potent poisons are found in nature! Much of our biological warfare is based on naturalyl found compounds that then get synthetically optimised.

Quote:

That's a very interesting hypothesis. I don't know buckets about psychopharmacology, but I'm fairly certain it would depend on how strong of an agonist each chemical is.





Dblaney have a look at this slideshow http://www.dancesafe.org/slideshow/index.html . Hell,actually, EVERYONE should have a look at this slideshow.Its simple,its nice ,and it gives you pictures to remember how MDMA acts.

As a sidenote :Ann Shulgin mentioned that MDMA sessions became more therapeutic (that is the patient was able to retain the meanings and "revelations" of the experience) if on the tail of the MDMA experience 2C-B was administered.Now ,2C-B is a phenethylamine which bears resemblance to dopamine but acts as classic hallucinogens such as Mescaline and psilocybin.Hmmm....Could it be that it occupies the serotonine transporters? Could it be that its 5HT2a agonist actions interfere somehow with the "comedown" or anything else?


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All
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Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 9,458
Loc: British Columbia
Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: optikal_trip]
    #4392316 - 07/11/05 02:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

MDMA makes your serotonin receptors not work properly for a long period of time. This is not the case with psilocybin.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4392395 - 07/11/05 02:47 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

" The molly is where i see the real damage. mushrooms being natural and lsd being semi-synthetic allow your brain to have a smoother recovery but xtc will cause a lot of damage over extended use.
key word: extended



Wrong. Although if a chemical exists in nature there are chances we might have evolved means to detoxify for it this is not always the case.There are purely synthetic molecules that the body has no problem to detoxify from and have a "smooth recovery" and there are natural molecules that your body cant detoxify from. Amanitotoxin is a perfect example! Nope, it kills you in a week from ingestion time because you cant "recover" from it,you cant "detoxify" and you suffer liver failure.Another scary molecule is Abrin,look it up...Its N-A-S-T-Y and natural.To tell you the truth the most potent poisons are found in nature! Much of our biological warfare is based on naturalyl found compounds that then get synthetically optimised."

So if that persons wrong, whats your point? MDMA may damage your brain, LSD and mushrooms dont. Thats what the person said, if you dont agree with them, could you elaborate further on how its wrong and how acid and psilocybin damage your brain?

As far as the original question, acid+shrooms, acid+mdma..whatever combo your talking...the orignal question asked if serotonin receptors would be overloaded...I have a feeling that if damage is incured from any one drug, put together they wouldnt do any extra damage...its not like a few hits of acid and a few tabs of X would put any more to your serotinin receptors then taking a thumbprint of acid...that would be cause your serotonin receptors to overload in a small dose of those drugs would I would think.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4392435 - 07/11/05 02:57 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So if that persons wrong, whats your point? MDMA may damage your brain, LSD and mushrooms dont. Thats what the person said, if you dont agree with them, could you elaborate further on how its wrong and how acid and psilocybin damage your brain?




The "wrong" part went to the "it is natural" kind of justification.Mushrooms and LSD have not proven to cause brain damage ,indeed,there are some concerning data about MDMA though.My focus was more on why the "natural" argument isnt valid although the conclusion is. (Its good to have also a scientifically sound justification to back up the final point one is trying to make)



Hmmm...I think that if serotonine receptors get "overloaded" they are just drawn back in the post/pre synaptic cell.What causes the damage might not be "overload" but free radicals (oxidative stress) from dopamine breaking down where it shouldnt,plus other factors that have to do more with lifestyle choices such as staying up late and skiping sleep,being exposed to loud music and dancing for hours unend all those under influence of MDMA.

A rather complicated issue if i may say...


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OfflineJon
Registered: 06/28/03
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: Psiloman]
    #4392531 - 07/11/05 03:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I thought Phenethylamines had nothing to do with the serotonin gland, rather the lovey dovey phenethylamine gland. 2C-E felt a little brain damaging sometimes, but I usually felt normal within 8 hours after the comedown. I have no idea how psilocybin can produce such effects and not completely retard the user after the experience. I have mixed shrooms and 2C-E before, the psilocybin removes the stimulating effect of 2C-E making me tired, and causes a clear headed relaxation for me. These chemicals on their own usually have the power to keep me up an entire day, but the mixture allowed me to have a very fun and visual "Psychadelic nap" I dont know if it is a safe combination, but it is quite an experience. Also I reccomend using less than 10mg and dosing the psilocybin 30 minutes before the come up. Then again it was a very low dose of both drugs, but it felt quite strong yet gentle, where as 2C-E or shrooms alone kick my ass.


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OfflinePsiloman
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Re: Can mixing damage serotonin receptors? [Re: Jon]
    #4393492 - 07/11/05 08:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Serotonine gland?

Phenethylamine glant?

There are no such things,only receptors of neurotransmiters and locations where they can be found in great concentrations.Also nerve cells from those regions may project to other parts of the brain.

Some phenethylamines,yes ,interact with serotonine receptors

Take psilocybin and mescaline for example.One tryptamine,one phenethylamine! Yet you can find that both are agonists of 5HT2a (serotonine receptor substype) that is proposed by science as the mechanism of their action....


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