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Offlinecavemate_A
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Saturated Fat and Cholesterol
    #6377828 - 12/16/06 09:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think the current "anti-cholesterol" stuff is politcal nutrition. The conclusion that "cholesterol clogs artieres" was drawn from one flawed study, done about 60 years ago. High cholesterol is only a symptom of a disease. Cholesterol in food is harmless, and beneficial to human development.

Saturated fat and cholesterol are always found together in animal products. Saturated fat is the heathiest type of fat to consume.

This is because humans are top-level carnivores. We got where we are today by eating energy-dense animal foods. ...It's only in the last 10 000 years that "diseases of civilization", such as cancer and diabetes, have appeared.

If you don't eat enough animal fats, you will likely have a few cavities (or more) in your life. Because if you're not eating lots of fatty food, you're probably getting your enegy from carbohydates. And only carbohydrates can cause cavities. (the dentist lies. brushing and flossing won't prevent, only delay the onset).

What's your opinion on this matter of health?


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OfflineTrancedShroom
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6377872 - 12/16/06 10:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Good write up, if true.


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Offlinecavemate_A
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #6377887 - 12/16/06 10:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

if you would like to read where I have gathered some of that information

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/pcnutrition.html


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6377924 - 12/16/06 10:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

1. True, dietary cholesterol and the level of cholesterol present in our blood seem to be unrelated to one another.

2. Saturated fat is NOT the healthiest fat to consume, and our diet 10,000 years ago likely contained very little of it. Polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats from plant sources are the healthiest fats. Because...

3. Humans are not "top-level carnivores." Have you checked your teeth lately? Unless you are a very strange human, you are not sporting a mouth full of fangs. Humans are omnivores, and our teeth are designed for both tearing and grinding. Likewise, our digestive system is not that of a carnivore, and a meat-only diet is not good for us.

4. Cavities are not, and will never be, caused by carbohydrates. While the sticky remains of simple starches and sugars do provide a beneficial environment for plaque (the actual cause of cavities), brushing and flossing to remove food debris does prevent cavities.

5. Consumption of animal fats is also unrelated to the development of dental cavities. There are many other foods which could be consumed in the alternative, rather than replacing animal fats with simple carbs (which do not cause cavities by themselves).

6. Lifestyle diseases, such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes, seem to be related to the "unhealthy triad" of excessive simple carb consumption, sedentary lifestyle and high intake of unhealthy saturated and trans-fats (aka artificially saturated plant oils).

If you are interested in the so-called "Paleolithic" diet, which is probably what you intended to describe, it contained very lean (game) meats, nuts, seeds, vegetables & fruits. It was likely very high in polyunsaturated fats, which were an excellent source of quick energy, and very low in saturated fats, as game animals tend to be extremely lean. It was also very high in fiber, and low in natural sugars (wild fruits tend to be smaller and less-plentiful than the crops we grow now.)


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Offlinecavemate_A
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: Veritas]
    #6378231 - 12/17/06 12:49 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the reply. We are omnivorus creatures, I agree.. but only for survival purposes. Most plant foods are carbohyrate based, and are able to supply energy in times of scarcity, but it is not preferred over animal products. Our closest genetic ancestors, the Neanderthals, were top-level carnivores. They required high amounts of animal protien and fat - mostly procured from large herbivores.

RE: eating lean meats - To my knowledge, traditional, non industrialized societies would throw out the leanest parts of the animal. They treasured the thick layer of insulating fat on the animal. They also ate the organs, and brain. The Canadian Inuit still highly value seal blubber, and Indians still use animal fat to make pemmican. A diet of "guts and grease".

RE: Paleolithic diet - Many people would benefit from something close to this diet. It's not a solid set of diet principles though, as I have seen different viewpoints coming from each of it's proponents. The major disagreement centers around the ideal porportion of sat. fat in the diet. It was interesting to find out that paleo diets contained less calcium. Somewhere around 600mg per day, compared with the 1000mg RDA we have today.

RE: Fiber - its tough for your body to digest, whereas animal foods can be liquified and used as energy the fastest. Intake of fiber has never conclusively been shown to correlate with any reduction in disease rates.

Quote:

Veritas said:
Cavities are not, and will never be, caused by carbohydrates. While the sticky remains of simple starches and sugars do provide a beneficial environment for plaque (the actual cause of cavities), brushing and flossing to remove food debris does prevent cavities.




In the travels of Dr. Weston A Price, he visited many primitive societies. None of them had ever heard of anything similar to a toothbrush. On a diet of fat and protien, cavities do not exist. I say this because carbs always break down to sugar. The favorite fuel of bacteria is sugar.

Quote:

Veritas said: Lifestyle diseases, such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes, seem to be related to the "unhealthy triad" of excessive simple carb consumption, sedentary lifestyle and high intake of unhealthy saturated and trans-fats (aka artificially saturated plant oils).




I agree with everything except your opinion on saturated fat. People are getting fat.. lazy, and they are eating "frankenfoods". Little kids eating McDonalds, sucking back soft drinks, munching on Fruit Loops and chocolate bars. Its really frustrating to see so many parents buying this junk for their kids. If people ate whole foods I'm sure there would be less degenerative disease..

This is a good read about the evolution of the human diet - http://email.eva.mpg.de/~richards/pdf/Richards_EJCN.pdf#search="isotopes%20meat%20homo%20sapiens%20bones" ...IMO, this article provides some good evidence for the linkage between carbs and dental caries.

Here's an online copy of Dr. Price's book - "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration". He took some amazing photos of the damage that modern foods can do to a person. The difference in facial structure is remarkable. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6379236 - 12/17/06 02:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No, we are omnivores because we have evolved to be omnivores. Our teeth and digestive system are not identical to that of a dog, as claimed at Dr. Weston Price's site. He is a dentist, by the way, and not a medical doctor. One would think that a dentist would be able to discern the obvious differences between canine teeth and human teeth, but apparently he missed them. Humans are primates, not canines, and primates are omnivorous.

Adequate intake of both soluble and insoluble ("hard to digest") fiber is essential to optimum health for humans. It might be wise to do some broader research before taking the word of an internet quack as gospel.

Some of the ideas he proposes are based upon sound research, and some appear to be the standard internet nutrition hysteria. Nutrition is a science, and new discoveries are made all the time. For now, the working theory is that a diet low in saturated fat, containing little to no trans-fats, is best for modern human health.

Perhaps if we were still chasing down our food, we could handle the higher levels of saturated fat consumed by active hunters in extremely cold climates. Since we are hunting our food in a grocery store aisle, we cannot utilize the concentrated energy contained in saturated fats, so it ends up being stored, as in creating obesity.

I agree that the obscenely high levels of sugar consumption, particularly of the refined white variety AND high-fructose corn syrup, are related to increased risk of disease and cavities. However, to lump ALL carbohydrates in with refined sugars and starches is absurd. Humans need complex carbs to thrive and remain healthy, not just to survive until the next big bison kill.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6381558 - 12/18/06 12:27 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cavemateA said:
The conclusion that "cholesterol clogs artieres" was drawn from one flawed study, done about 60 years ago.





please tell me you're joking.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Offlinecavemate_A
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #6384675 - 12/18/06 11:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Any type of fat, without the abundance of carbohydrates, will not be stored. This is premise behind a few diet books (like Atkins, Voegtlin or Eades). If carbohyrate intake remains low enough, the body will use fat for fuel.

He is a dentist, yes. But I feel this unimportant, because why does it matter what kind of credentials you have? I think we should be looking at the validity of his claims.

He did not claim our teeth and digestive system are identical to dogs, but made a comparison. We do have canines, riged molars, and have a stomach that secretes large quantities of hydrochloric acid. (It also looks like Sally Fallon, or Mary Enig probably wrote the article)

The most imporatant realization I came to after reading this research was that there is more than one way to eat. Some traditional people still eat this way. And what Weston says is true-- these people don't experience cancer, heart disease, or any other diseases of civilization.

I think this research is a clue into the causes of disease. What is strange to me is that scientists/doctors have ignored trying to find the root cause of disease. Too much effort is put into band-aid solutions. Pills to alleviate symptoms, searching for pharmecutical solutions (profit driven solutions). All while the cause remains unidentified, and the answer is right in front of them. I think it's valid to say that food is one of our most basic requirements for survival. We're running on 87 octane, when before we had the premium.

I definately agree about internet hysteria. So many idea-pushers out there, and some of them are in it for the money. Take Dr. Mercola for instance. If he cleaned up his site and stopped selling shit on it, his claims might look more reputable. That said, there are lots of quacks on the side of organized medicine. Dr. Joel Fuhrman of diseaseproof.com, for example. He is claiming that vegetarianism is the best way to go.

All this has me questioning my idea of what a "healthy" life is really like. And who can speak the truth, when so many do? There's no trustable source of information out there.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6385681 - 12/19/06 10:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

As I said, "we cannot utilize the concentrated energy contained in saturated fats, so it ends up being stored, as in creating obesity." The same is true of any excess calories consumed, from whatever source. If you do not use this energy, it will be stored for "later." The problem is, for modern humans, that "later" never comes.

This is why modern humans cannot eat blubber all day long & remain slim and trim. We simply are not living the active lifestyle of our ancient forebears. We are not exposed to the elements, thus requiring extra calories to stay warm. We drive everywhere, including our infrequent trips to the gym to "work out," and live in a perpetually warm and dry environment.

To advocate a return to a primitive diet overlooks the conditions under which this diet may have been beneficial, and the fact that we are not living in those conditions currently.

And, yes, it does matter that the diet guru is a dentist. His education and ability to research are in question.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: Veritas]
    #6386346 - 12/19/06 02:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Humans need complex carbs to thrive and remain healthy, not just to survive until the next big bison kill.


I always go on a strict complex carb diet between bison hunts, but it's tough during the holidays. :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: Diploid]
    #6389513 - 12/20/06 11:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:lol:


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Offlinecavemate_A
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: Diploid]
    #6389548 - 12/20/06 11:24 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Compared to modern humans, our ancestors were lazy people. They worked less than us. Their lives were much more dangerous though, I agree. Exposed to the elements, and not having a social system of law in place would equal a shorter life expectancy.

And no, most of us are not as physically fit as your typical hunter-gatherer, but that's related to other factors. Exercise is much less important than food choice. Which has greater impact on overall health?... the fuel you use to run your car, or the amount of mileage you've racked up?

Obesity is caused by excess carbohyrates, not fat. Excess fat cannot be stored if carbohyrates are not available, because carbs raise insulin levels, and the body will not store extra calories without insulin. Personally, I have not gained any weight from eating extremely high amounts of fat, and neither have countless thousands of others on similar diets. This principle is central to any Low-Carb diet.

LiquidSmoke, the "cholesterol is bad" dogma is based on the lipid-hypothesis, which states that there is a direct relationship between the amount of saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet and the incidence of coronary heart disease. This theory was proposed by a researcher named Ancel Keys in the late 1950's.

"The vegetable oil and food processing industries, the main beneficiaries of any research that found fault with competing traditional foods, began promoting and funding further research designed to support the lipid hypothesis." ...The lipid-hypothesis is nothing but a politicized piece of junk science, which has negatively affected the well-being of millions of people for over 50 years.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6391840 - 12/20/06 10:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Your theories (or those of the authors at the quackery site you've linked to) are not based upon nutritional science or human physiology.

While you are certainly free to pursue a high-fat, meat-only, low-exercise approach to optimum health, do not expect your false claims to go unchallenged when you propose them as beneficial options for others.


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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6393892 - 12/21/06 02:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

stop making car analogies :lol:


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Offlinecavemate_A
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: Boom]
    #6395889 - 12/22/06 03:44 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

A large amount of people believe similar things. To some, this is quackery. To others, it is truthful.

Veritas, do you believe others who propose dietary information, such as the government?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6396253 - 12/22/06 10:21 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Not unless they have solid research to back it up.  Critical thinking. :thumbup:

What this dentist is proposing simply does not make sense within the framework of human physiology.  Much of what the government proposes in terms of what they deem "safe" to eat does not make sense, either.

IMO, we should study the human body in general, experiment with various dietary practices in our own lives, then go with what works.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: cavemate_A]
    #6396769 - 12/22/06 01:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cavemate_A said:


Obesity is caused by excess carbohyrates, not fat. Excess fat cannot be stored if carbohyrates are not available, because carbs raise insulin levels, and the body will not store extra calories without insulin.




Uhm...sugar isn't the only thing that causes an increase of insulin in the blood. Vagus nerve stimulation with the anticipation of consumption of food is pretty much all you need, considering your pancreatic alpha and beta cells are somatically controlled.


Quote:

Personally, I have not gained any weight from eating extremely high amounts of fat, and neither have countless thousands of others on similar diets. This principle is central to any Low-Carb diet.






Did you know Dr. Atkins died of Liver failure caused by an excess buildup of ketone bodies in his Kupfer flora?

While there is a certain amount of accelerated lipid metabolism in the body, the majority of weight you do lose initially is water mass loss from glycogen storage in your muscles, which is why Lo-Carb diets have been proven to lead to muscle deterioration.

Quote:

LiquidSmoke, the "cholesterol is bad" dogma is based on the lipid-hypothesis, which states that there is a direct relationship between the amount of saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet and the incidence of coronary heart disease. This theory was proposed by a researcher named Ancel Keys in the late 1950's.





Do you realize how many times this theory was challenged back then and has been tested on over and over again with a significant correlation resulting even with all kinds of isolated confounding variables?

Take a metabolic biochemistry class and you'll learn that the build up of plaque and incidence of atherosclerosis in humans is interchangeable with alot of the consumed metabolites, with an increase in dietary lipid consumption being the most direct pathway to indogenous cholesterol synthesis and the overall proliferation of LDLs.

Quote:

"The vegetable oil and food processing industries, the main beneficiaries of any research that found fault with competing traditional foods, began promoting and funding further research designed to support the lipid hypothesis." ...The lipid-hypothesis is nothing but a politicized piece of junk science, which has negatively affected the well-being of millions of people for over 50 years.




Yes, lets forget the entire medical community agreeing with those findings. They must have all been paid off to educate their doctors to support the vegetable and food processing industries.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Saturated Fat and Cholesterol [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #6396859 - 12/22/06 02:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

for one thing, we have HANDS and can build Knives so we don't need the same kind of teeth as animals. we evolved the teeth we have because we can use them to eat anything.

and cancer has only appeared in the last 100 years, not 1000
other than that, i'm not reading through this whole thread. i'd say, eat whatever makes you feel the healthiest, and that food will be healthy for you


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