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Invisiblebwo
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 17
grain transfers - maximum possible?
    #635309 - 05/18/02 09:23 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

hi. tmc recommends no more than 3 grain transfers from an original master. although they say that "some" commercial operations get away with 4.

is this related to contams or senescence? i imagine it is contams although i have gotten away with 5...

anyone else have experience with this?


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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Invisiblearmedia
Dikaryon

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 169
Re: grain transfers - maximum possible? [Re: bwo]
    #635355 - 05/18/02 10:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

It has to do only with the increased possibility of contamination. In commercial systems, each transfer involves an exponential expansion of substrate mass (each jar can innoculate 10 jars, and so on), which means an exponential increase in contaminants, if they are introduced. Apparently 3 or 4 powers is the average that one can get away with, but if you're very careful, you might do better than that.

It has nothing to do with sensescence, which would only result from repeated transfers of the same strain, for many iterations, which can occur if you keep reculturing a strain on agar for years. However, this is a subject of some debate, and some people feel it only arises when a strain is cultured on media that with toxic components (such as caramelized sugars) or simple media that do not keep the mushroom enzymes active, and can be easily avoided by rotating media recipes often, so the mushroom sees different substrates often (kind of like excercising it.)

It's not really like generations (kids of kids of kids, etc.) since no sexual recombination is going on when you transfer from grain-to-grain. That would be more like germinating spores from a mushroom in each fruiting, which would be another way to avoid the possibility of senescence.

- A


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Invisiblebwo
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 17
Re: grain transfers - maximum possible? [Re: armedia]
    #636095 - 05/19/02 05:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

haha so basically mushroom mycelium can live forever as long as you give it the proper (bi-annual?) exercise! i always wondered why senescence happened, it never made sense to me since mushrooms are a fungus...

cocnerning the grain transfers, i wonder how my sixth transfer will go in a week or so. its fun to push the envelope.


--------------------
"habit is the ballast that chains the dog to its vomit" - s beckett


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Offlinehermes3
journeyman
Registered: 07/17/00
Posts: 56
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: grain transfers - maximum possible? [Re: bwo]
    #683477 - 06/17/02 08:19 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I've gone over a year with probably eight transfers grain to grain. I slightly vary my grain with yeast or dung or different season's stream water. This has for me been the limit before my crops start losing their vitality. I always back up with spore prints at exceptional flushes.


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Invisibledurban_poison
myco contractor
Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 2,417
Re: grain transfers - maximum possible? [Re: bwo]
    #683562 - 06/17/02 09:13 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

fire ants I know havent germinated spores in a very long time always using grain to grain an infinite times. not a problem ever.


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