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Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim
    #5984702 -

Link:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/gizmos/0,71626-0.html?tw=rss.index

Quote:
It happened by accident, he says. His company Steorn was looking for an efficient way to power closed-circuit TVs that spy on ATMs, and instead stumbled on a technique they think produces more energy than it consumes.


Quote:
The company hasn't released specific details about the process, other than to say it involves magnetic fields configured in precisely the right way... he advertised in this week's Economist for a panel of the "most cynical possible" physicists to help validate them....They will be given full access to the company's work, will be able to take the technology home to test in their own laboratories, or recreate the process themselves.


Quote:
According to the company's website, nearly 1500 scientists have "expressed interest" in testing the technology as of late Monday, and more than 17,000 people had signed up to receive word of the results.


Thoughts?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5984809 -

Gijith said:
Thoughts?


Garbage, like all the other claims of overunity.

Of course, I hope I'm quite wrong about that.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5984944 -

The company hasn't released specific details about the process, other than to say it involves magnetic fields

How many times have we heard this before? I've lost count.

he advertised in this week's Economist for a panel of the "most cynical possible" physicists to help validate them

Thus confirming they're full of shit.

If the thing works, they don't need any cynical or other type of physicists. All they have to do is build a generator that runs without fuel and start raking in more money than Bill Gates ever dreamed of.  :rolleyes:

Like with claims of magical powers, when you see someone talking about it but not doing it, it's an immediate tip off.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5985013 -

well it's a sketchy company which provides a little bit of vague information about itself, its employees and .. this invention.

I don't believe it, this is a publicity stunt.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: vampirism]
    #5985115 -

they invented perpetual motion while trying to spy on atm's? so they found one method to rip people off while exercising another method to rip people off!


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You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5986022 -

> other than to say it involves magnetic fields configured in precisely the right way...

... and one time, at band camp, we turned lead into gold...

> How many times have we heard this before? I've lost count.

More times than I care to count... To save Anno the hassle of typing, http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5986044 -

Dude's obviously drunk.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5986178 -

It's time to sell the shares.


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Drugs in me, my report blog

Peyote Nethack!

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Seuss]
    #5986346 -

Sorry guys I didn't realize these claims get made so often. Why the hell would someone knowingly ruin their career? There can't be money in this.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5986534 -

The perpetual motion people are usually well-meaning but they have a 3rd grade science education. That's why they can deceive themselves into thinking they've broken the foundations of physics.

A few are smart charlatans preying on gullible people with 3rd grade science educations in an effort to get them to 'invest' in the fantastic new invention that will solve the world's problems.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5986702 -

> Sorry guys I didn't realize these claims get made so often

Don't be sorry for posting... and it isn't you making the claim, so no reason to feel defensive.  :smile:

One thing from the article that struck me odd... he put something in the economist (or something close to that) asking for cynical scientists to check his work... kind of like a cancer patient looking in sports illustrated for a doctor... doesn't really make sense.  But, if he were looking for investers that didn't know any better, where better to advertise, a scientific journal or an economics journal?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #5988769 -

Gijith said:
Sorry guys I didn't realize these claims get made so often. Why the hell would someone knowingly ruin their career? There can't be money in this.


Apparently there is money in it. Turns out there are a lot of venture capitalists with a lot of money and a limited grasp on reality, as the dot-com days showed us all too clearly. And perpetual motion/free energy is one of those fields that eccentric millionaires traditionally just love throwing their money into, along with the hunt for the Loch Ness monster, the search for Atlantis, eugenics and assorted conspiracy theories.


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"You should view the world as a conspiracy run by a very closely-knit group of nearly omnipotent people, and you should think of that group as yourself and your friends."

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #6005826 -

I find it somewhat disappointing that Steorn is scoffed at before anyone has made any real attempt to address their claims. Real scientific minded people take every claim seriously, investigate it for it's authenticity, and dismiss it only after it has been thoroughly tested and understood. We, who frown on Steorn for being unscientific, have thrown away the very guiding principles of science by refusing even to entertain their claims.

A perpetual motion machine is not necessarily a machine that creates energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. A perpetual motion machine is a machine which saps energy from a source other than it's initial input source, and that is inexhaustible. Such a machine is self-sustaining, delivering an energy surplus which can be used for tertiary objectives such as running a car, charging a cell phone, or whatever.

Energy itself is infinite, and is therefore inexhaustible. In fact, it's because of the laws of energy conservation that the amount of energy available in the universe is inexhaustible. Something which is created, or has a beginning, must also have an end, or a destruction. Something which exists but can not be created cannot be destroyed, and cannot end. From this we can conclude that the amount of energy in the universe is absolutely unquantifiable, for to quantify it is to imply a beginning and an end, creation and destruction, which is in contradiction to the first law of thermodynamics.

Since history began, human beings have been extracting energy from material sources. Potential energy is what holds material together. When you break material apart, you release the energy holding that material together. When potential energy is released through the destruction of materials it becomes kinetic energy, and can be harnessed to achieve work. The left over materials are then discarded as waste, most often in the form of pollution. We have been doing this for centuries. It is not a violation of any physical laws to suggest, as Steorn has suggested, that other ways of extracting energy exist. Perhaps it is possible to extract energy from sources which are not material in nature.

What free energy suggests is that destroying material is not the only way to obtain energy. In step with widely accepted modern physics, free energy thinkers feel that the energy which has already been proven to exist in limitless volumes at any point within the vacuum of empty space can be extracted, harnessed, and directed, without generating any waste or harmful side effects. This does not fly in the face of any physical laws: energy is not being created. In fact, it is being exchanged like in any other system. The difference is that the input received by the mechanical system is immaterial. The immaterial nature of the input source allows us to fly under the radar thermodynamic's Second Law.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state. Quoting James Clerk Maxwell:

"The truth of the second law is a statistical, not a mathematical, truth, for it depends on the fact that the bodies we deal with consist of millions of molecules. Hence the second law of thermodynamics is continually being violated, and that to a considerable extent, in any sufficiently small group of molecules belonging to a real body." (J. C. Maxwell, “Tait's Thermodynamics II,” Nature 17, 278–280 [7 February 1878]).

Philosophically, the idea of a free energy system is entirely plausible. Scientifically, it is conceivable. Practically, it awaits demonstration.

I'm not staying that Steorn's got the ticket. I'm saying that we need to contemplate this issue throughly before dismissing it out of hand.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Ped]
    #6005995 -

I find it somewhat disappointing that Steorn is scoffed at before anyone has made any real attempt to address their claims.

Their claims do not need addressing. All they have to do is put up or shut up.

If they can do what they say they can do, why are they talking about it instead of doing it?

I'll tell you why: they're looking for 'investors' to bilk. It's not even an original scheme. Hundreds of charlatans go before them with the same claims.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Ped]
    #6006134 -

So lets put aside Steorn and talk about free energy. If Steorn is the substanceless marketing enterprise you believe it is, and if this is the science and technology forum, then instead of talking about Steorn we should be discussing the feasibility of free energy.

Isn't that what's really in question here?


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Ped]
    #6006546 -

the feasibility of free energy

It's not feasible unless we have the most basic ideas about physics very wrong. You can't extract zero-point energy from the universe, which I think is what you're referring to, in the same way a ship on the ocean can't power itself by sucking in ocean water, extracting the energy, then dumping ice cubes overboard.

In order for energy to be useful, there has to be a gradient and since zero-point is the lowest possible energy a quantum mechanical system can have, there is no place with less energy for the zero-point energy to go, hence no gradient.

This concept goes along the lines that you can't have a temperature lower than absolute zero because temperature IS the motion of molecules. At absolute zero, ALL that motion ceases. It is meaningless to talk about something whose molecules are moving less than zero amount. You can't stop any more once you're fully stopped. (This isn't technically accurate, but close enough for jazz).

You may argue that science has been proven wrong before, and I'll grant that it may be wrong in this case, but if it is, I think there would be some inkling by now. Untold numbers of experiments and observations spanning the entire spectrum of science from cosmology to atomic physics all solidly confirm that extracting energy from zero-point is not possible.

I never say never, but then I never say pink elephants won't fall from the sky either. I just say that it's so unlikely that I don't waste my time considering it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Ped]
    #6010426 -

Quote:
Ped said:Potential energy is what holds material together. When you break material apart, you release the energy holding that material together. When potential energy is released through the destruction of materials it becomes kinetic energy


No. You have to bring energy into the system to break material apart.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Anno]
    #6010811 -

> You have to bring energy into the system to break material apart.

Correct. This is known as binding energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_energy:
Quote:
Binding energy is the energy required to disassemble a whole into separate parts. A bound system has a lower potential energy than its constituent parts; this is what keeps the system together. The usual convention is that this corresponds to a positive binding energy.

In general, binding energy represents the mechanical work which must be done in acting against the forces which hold an object together, while disassembling the object into component parts separated by such sufficient distance that further separation requires negligible additional work.



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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #6011318 -

Gijith said:
There can't be money in this.


Gijith said:
...and more than 17,000 people had signed up to receive word of the results.


Ahem. Registration data. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Ped]
    #6015958 -

Tom Bearden has been fooling (and not fooling) people for years with his ever-changing pseudoscientific claims. He also as never added a watt of his so-called "free energy" from whatever he's advertising to the grid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motionless_Electrical_Generator

Bearden wants 11 million dollars to bring it into wide-scale production, claims to have had a prototype which, for some reason, was "promptly destroyed."

He's just another con artist.

Edit: -p


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

Edited by Xanthas (09/01/06 01:51 AM)

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Xanthas]
    #6016726 -

He doesn't need 'large scale production'. All he needs is one working prototype, and the world will be forever changed.

That he can't manage that even after decades of trying is a dead giveaway. That people are throwing money at him is depressing evidence of the sorry state of science education.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Diploid]
    #6017440 -

> That people are throwing money at him is depressing evidence of the sorry state of science education.

I've always said the same thing about people that spend money to play the lottery. The world is full of gullable people and the world is full of con artists ready to take advantage of gullable people. It is sad.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Seuss]
    #6018573 -

I think its a little different. When you play a reputable lottery, like one run by the Gov't here in the States, you know SOMEONE is going to win. Granted, the odds that it will be someone other than you so high as to be near certainty, but there will be a winner.

This guys scientific claims are just completely bogus. Nobody will win except him, and that doesnt count.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #6019570 -

Actuarially, that one dollar you spend on the lottery is the most horrible investment in the history of investing. You'd be better off buying swampland and hoping for a drought.  :smirk:

People make bad decisions like buying a lottery ticket all the time because they don't understand that they're all but tossing the money in the trash. Actuaries and mathematicians sometimes call the lottery a tax for dumb people.

Think of it this way: betting $1 against 15 million to 1 odds, is the same as betting $1000 against 15 billion to 1 odds, but it pays 1000 times what the first bet pays if you win. Actuarially, they are the same bet.

Would you take the $1000 bet? Probably not, because in the second case, the actuarial absurdity of the bet is pretty obvious, but in the first bet it's not.

Learn to find the truth behind the factors that should govern decisions and it will serve you well in life.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Diploid]
    #6022402 -

Like I said, the odds of you winning are so low as to make it a near certainty that you will lose.

But someone WILL win.

I'm not saying its a good investment. I'm just saying that its different from this mad scientists claim, because nobody will benefit from throwing money at him.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Irish Scientist Throws Down Gauntlet on Perpetual Motion Claim [Re: Gijith]
    #6024204 -

I only had to read the first two words of the thread title to know that this was obviously bullshit. Trixy little leprechaun scientists! :lol:


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General Interest > Science and Technology
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