Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Sporeworks
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940384 -

Fractalated said:
When great numbers of human beings compete, out of greed, for the limited resources that we have, then the world turns into the state its in today, with war, famine, hatred, violence, poverty, and so much suffering.


What you are really trying to say is when human beings compete, period, it causes suffering, because you cannot compete with the one you are trying to help in the first place. So, with that logic, one should stay stagnant and feel guilty for every dollar they have not given away, and feel possessive of every extra dollar their neighbor has.

You can be one or the other, but you can't be a workhorse for everyone else's gain, just like you can't pretend of being an altruist when you are in fact, a moocher.

Men should compete for the greatest gain for the self, and if one decides to give away a part of his capital for a physical or a moral exchange of virtues, for someone who is trying hard to survive, then his efforts will not be wasted.

You can help others reach success with your aid if you share the same moral premises, however one should never feel guilty of their own selfishness. Their financial capital is their worth, the value of their material success.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940404 -

What you are really trying to say is when human beings compete, period, it causes suffering, because you cannot compete with the one you are trying to help in the first place. So, with that logic, one should stay stagnant and feel guilty for every dollar they have not given away, and feel possessive of every extra dollar their neighbor has.

Close, but that wasn't exactly what I was going for. I was trying to say that there is a level of competition that is entirely natural. But beyond a certain point, when one tries to accumulate more and more and more solely out of greed, then it creates needless suffering. Will there be suffering when there is any sort of competition? Probably. But up to a certain point, it is natural to compete for resources merely out of self-interest and the urge for self-preservation, and suffering arising out of this type of competition is minimal I think.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940422 -

Another reason to focus primarily, though not exclusively, on one's own success:  if you are taking care of yourself, you will not be claiming resources and assistance from other producers.  IOW, if you take care of your own shit, you won't be begging for a shovel.  :grin:

By extension, this means that someone who really needs assistance may be able to receive additional resources which you have not claimed.

Whether or not a successful person becomes a philanthropist/volunteer, they still have chosen not to become a burden on society's productive members.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940462 -

Fractalated said:
Close, but that wasn't exactly what I was going for. I was trying to say that there is a level of competition that is entirely natural.


Kind of like two mammals going at it for succession as an alpha male, right? Where one goes in hunger due to the other's succession?

Quote:
But beyond a certain point, when one tries to accumulate more and more and more solely out of greed, then it creates needless suffering.


If someone is making money honestly, then they are getting their worth. Should they decrease their own personal value once they've crossed the threshold of their own success?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Veritas]
    #5940487 -

Quote:
Another reason to focus primarily, though not exclusively, on one's own success: if you are taking care of yourself, you will not be claiming resources and assistance from other producers.


Exactly, because with the exchange of trade with the use money, you have given back as much as you received.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940504 -

Kind of like two mammals going at it for succession as an alpha male, right? Where one goes in hunger due to the other's succession?

Kind of, only since we're talking about two human beings, they are capable of enlightened selfishness, and so would be able to share and compromise.

If someone is making money honestly, then they are getting their worth. Should they decrease their own personal value once they've crossed the threshold of their own success?

Yes! Once they've reached their potential they should suddenly stop and retire and leave all worldly things! :grin:

Nah, I don't see any harm in making money honestly, provided that they are using that money to help with the greater good.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940514 -

Are you saying that there is harm in making money honestly if one does not contribute some of it to the greater good?

What harm would be caused through utilizing one's own resources for one's own survival and enjoyment, and nothing else?

:confused:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940563 -

Fractalated said:
Kind of, only since we're talking about two human beings, they are capable of enlightened selfishness, and so would be able to share and compromise.


Enlightened selfishness? How can you, in a moment of unconditional love to everyone and everything, be only concerned about your sole gain?

Quote:
Yes! Once they've reached their potential they should suddenly stop and retire and leave all worldly things! :grin:



Why should I, after decades of work and struggle, go back to 0? Why work then in the first place if my destination will be my very start? Or even worse, regression to an earlier point? It's like a fat man jogging, and the more he runs, the fatter he gets. It's the ultimate contradiction.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940597 -

Quote:
Poster: Fospher
Subject: Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fractalated said:
Close, but that wasn't exactly what I was going for. I was trying to say that there is a level of competition that is entirely natural.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Kind of like two mammals going at it for succession as an alpha male, right? Where one goes in hunger due to the other's succession?


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But beyond a certain point, when one tries to accumulate more and more and more solely out of greed, then it creates needless suffering.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If someone is making money honestly, then they are getting their worth. Should they decrease their own personal value once they've crossed the threshold of their own success?



Most successful people would never hesitate to keep raising the threshold bar. Some would call that greedy but most successful people are only partly driven by money. Mostly, they are just very driven, energetic, and hard working people with lofty goals and that is what makes them tick. The mountain climber doesn't quit after climbing a mountain, he just finds a different or higher mountain to climb.

One doesn't accumulate money by being greedy, one accumulates money either by hard work, good timing, deferring taxes when possible and the time value of money. Well OK some inherit money but even there one can either squander or accumulate.

It takes money to make money and unless you are able to save the initial down payment on a house for example, you will never be a real estate mogul. Even there many don't understand the concept of or have the market timing sense to buy low and sell high much to their chagrin. That or they don't have a clue about the initial condition of a house, what it will take to fix it up, they lack the skills to do the fix up work yet try anyway, etc. on their way to foreclosure, bankruptcy and probably divorce.

If it was easy we would all be rich.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940598 -

Enlightened selfishness? How can you, in a moment of unconditional love to everyone and everything, be only concerned about your sole gain?

See my first post in this thread please.

Why should I, after decades of work and struggle, go back to 0? Why work then in the first place if my destination will be my very start? Or even worse, regression to an earlier point? It's like a fat man jogging, and the more he runs, the fatter he gets. It's the ultimate contradiction.

'Twas a joke, hence the grin.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940641 -

Quote:
I think one needs to make a distinction between enlightened selfishness (maintaining one's being here while causing the least amount of suffering in others as possible) and unenlightened/animalistic selfishness (trying to get as much as you can for yourself; being greedy and causing suffering for yourself when you can't get what you want and in others when they can't get what they want or even what they need).


So where's the line cross then? Should I work as hard as I can, have my own company, then leave to go sleep in a tin shack at night and eat from dumpsters because I've given away everything I had? Or should I simply not work, and not progress, simply living in animalistic conditions?

Quote:
'Twas a joke, hence the grin.


Just like your whole argument.  :smirk:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940645 -

Success lies in the word, the truth, not through false witnessing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940677 -

So where's the line cross then? Should I work as hard as I can, have my own company, then leave to go sleep in a tin shack at night and eat from dumpsters because I've given away everything I had? Or should I simply not work, and not progress, simply living in animalistic conditions?

It's interesting that you argue only with extremes. Neither of those cases exemplifies what I'm saying, and I think you know that.

You should work hard and get what you need, and once that is achieved, then I'm suggesting helping out others who, for whatever reason, aren't able to support themselves, or in some other way need help. I'm not saying give away everything you have, and I'm not saying make people dependent on you or to let people leech off of you.

Do you see the difference? It's in making yourself comfortable WITHOUT being greedy, and then helping others.

For instance, you work hard and are able to support yourself and your family. You don't give in to every whim and desire you have, but are reasonable with your income and outcome. Then one day you hear that you have a long lost brother in Ethiopia, and he's starving to death. Not through any fault of his own. If he could work, he'd be working every hour of every day. But there simply aren't any opportunities. There are only a few big corporations out there providing jobs, for measly pay and then charging quite a lot just for a little bit of food. The people who are lucky enough to get jobs are just barely able to support themselves, let alone family or friends. The land isn't very fertile, so there aren't many plants and there aren't many animals that he could hunt. Not to mention the medicine there is limited or non-existent. He's your brother and he's starving to death. Would you let him suffer and die just so you can get the latest and greatest Porsche? I certainly hope not.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940691 -

Neil Diamond - He Ain't Heavy... He's My Brother Lyrics
The road is long
With many a winding turn
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows where

But I'm strong
Strong enough to carry him
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

So on we go
His welfare is of my concern
No burden is he, to bear
We'll get there
For I know
He would not encumber me
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

If I'm laden at all
I'm laden with sadness
That everyone's heart
Isn't filled with the gladness
Of love for one another

It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on our way to there
Why not share

And the load
Doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
He ain't heavy, he's my brother.



Kinda gets ya right there  :heart:

Or maybe that was from the pepperoni pizza I had at Pizza Hut for lunch...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5940745 -

Fractalated said:
For instance, you work hard and are able to support yourself and your family. You don't give in to every whim and desire you have, but are reasonable with your income and outcome. Then one day you hear that you have a long lost brother in Ethiopia, and he's starving to death.


Quote:
It's interesting that you argue only with extremes. Neither of those cases exemplifies what I'm saying, and I think you know that.


No, I don't, and by what I'm reading, neither do you.  :grin:

Quote:
If he could work, he'd be working every hour of every day. But there simply aren't any opportunities. There are only a few big corporations out there providing jobs, for measly pay and then charging quite a lot just for a little bit of food.  ... Would you let him suffer and die just so you can get the latest and greatest Porsche?



Of course I would help him, because I would value his health higher than a new Porsche. How I spend money is up to me, and his progression would bring much more than a new car. His hard work would be an exchange of mine, thus it would be a moral exchange of virtues. He's sharing my moral premises of survival, thus attempting to give back every penny I give out. I'm making a trade, an investment in his future, not giving something away simply on the basis of need.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fospher]
    #5940969 -

Would you help him even if you knew that you would never get anything in return?


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5941591 -

fireworks_god said:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I am both a failure and a success depending upon how I choose to look at my life, and how others view me.


Unless how others view you is an aspect of your preferences that you concern yourself with, then their viewpoint as to whether or not you are personally a success is irrelevant.


Well, I was simply trying to avoid the assumption that MY ego was the relevant perspective. It goes without saying that I would prefer success over failure, but it's gonna be relative to the evaluator. I mean, I graduated from 3 universities and earned a Doctor of Philosophy degree. Most people I've met with a Ph.D. do not think any more of it than a ticket to a job. Who ponders what it means to be a Doctor of Philosophy in a particular field? I work in education, a field not known for high pay. To my late parents, I wasn't a REAL Doctor unless I could prescribe medication, perform surgery, make lots of money and carry the power and status assigned to physicians. My folks never called me a failure, but they shared the perspective of lots of people. I mean, I do have the power to 'Baker Act' (involuntarily commit for 72 hours of psychiatric observation)  people I deem crazy, I have written letters to judges and gotten former counselees off probation and kept restraining orders in effect, gotten people's air fare refunded, and sometimes gotten myself a table in a restaurant - but I don't have a DEA license to dispense drugs - REAL power. Adlerian psychology is really into 'personal power' - the Nietzschean "Will to Power" was behind Adler's thinking, and power - financial and social is what the majority of people think of in terms of success.

Tomorrow I return to work. I've been on vacation since May 26th. I'll have a couple of Jewish holidays between tomorrow and Thanksgiving when I'll get four days off, then I'll get two weeks off at Christmas and ten days for spring break I work 212 days out of 365.25 which means that I am off 153 days (including weekends) every year. Now, I'll never make six figures in education, but sometimes I'm pegged at being in my mid to late 30s when I'm actually 53. Some of that is genetic but some of it is because I have more time than most to enjoy free time! Personally, free time is much more precious to me than most everything. With free time I can alter my consciousness for re-creation and regeneration. My ex girlfriend tried to insult me by calling me a "Puer Senex," by which she meant an old man acting like a youth (because I wouldn't 'grow up' and do what SHE wanted me to do  :grin:).

I see success in terms of freedom, not power (money & status). Fortunately, we are both introverts and have no real desire to experience the 'outer' world. We can afford to travel, but it seems more trouble than it's worth to us introverts. I do not need to physically sense the places and things I find interesting in the world like Hawaiian lava flows and the Great Pyramid Cheops-Khufu. It is ideas that we love, so we have National Geographic and Bob Brier DVDs. Internal Freedom is really the direction that we aspire to, but it needs to be cultivated in free time.

My brother-the-lawyer has been to Hawaii a couple of times and to Greece and other places. When he returned from Greece, I asked him what he had learned at Delphi (the place of the Pythian Oracle, the place that brings to mind [poignantly in my brother's case] the Socratic "Know Thyself"). His mood turned instantly hostile: 'What do you mean what did I learn?! We went to Greece - you've never been there! We drank Ouzo, we broke some plates, we had a good time, yadda, yadda...' Hey, if I wanted to go to Greece, I'd go with my childhood friend Gary and his wife, both who are of Greek extraction and speak Greek. We'd visit historical locations, argue about the Eleusinian Mysteries at Eleusis (now oilfields I'm told) and their covert influence on early Christianity, discuss Plato's 'Timaeus,' etc. But he and I can do that on the internet. I don't need to go to Greece. I have a bottle of Ouzo here, but I don't even like the stuff. I'm such a loser - just ask my brother the lawyer  :smirk: 

Sorry for the ramble, but it's my last day of vacation. I read Gnostic stuff and Yogic stuff from 1-4, then got on the treadclimber, then cleaned the pool, put on a Grateful Dead concert on outside speakers, got in the pool, had a Beck's Dark and now I'm relating to youse guys. I'm...just...a...failure :sorry:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: Fractalated]
    #5942195 -

Fractalated said:
Would you help him even if you knew that you would never get anything in return?


If you want to know, read my response to your question again.  :smirk:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Being Concerned With One's Own Success [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5942341 -

For me travel provides the different environment. It shows me through direct experience how different people are, and how much differently those different people act than us. When I was in Hawaii last April and went to the lava flows, it reminded me yet again how beautiful this world really is if we are to preserve it (Control of littering is highly enforced). I couldn't get that experience by watching National Geographic on Hawaiian volcanoes.

As far as success goes, I think success is a direct relation to your happiness. If you are a Japanese Zen monk without a Yen to your name, but you are happy - then you can consider your life a success. And on the opposite, if you are a corporate CEO with money to burn, but you hate your job - hate what you do and how you live - then you can consider yourself a failure.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Moral Dilemma
( 1 2 all )		 infidelGOD 2,224 34 02/27/04 08:25 PM
by Frog
* The Dillema Philanthropist 720 15 02/03/05 08:25 PM
by Philanthropist
* Concern Yourselves With What You Want fireworks_godS 1,988 15 09/25/03 02:15 PM
by fireworks_god
* The Dillemas of seeking Truth jivJaN 593 5 06/16/09 02:46 PM
by OrganicVision
* misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist
( 1 2 3 all )		 kaiowas 3,687 41 01/14/04 02:34 PM
by kaiowas
* College Essay Help: Diversity Dilemma Zwieback0 650 1 10/25/03 01:25 AM
by Strumpling
* Is it Ego-Centric to Trust Oneself ? lucid 1,483 14 06/14/03 10:47 AM
by johnnyfive
* A situation involving my father and clinical depression...
( 1 2 all )		 JacquesCousteau 2,358 20 04/14/04 04:33 PM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,015 topic views. 1 members, 100 guests and 21 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 15 queries.