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OfflineSheepworkS
free thinker

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 87
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
chemical nutrient additives
    #5793293 - 06/26/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

NOT miracle grow, or similar.

specifically: General Hydroponics 3 part nutes. it is used for all sorts of hydro grow applications. it would seem adding a mushroom specific diluted 3 part ratio (what ratio, i have no idea) to the water you add to your substrate before PC'ing would up the available nutes for the mushrooms, no?

or has this already been gone over a few times and theres something detrimental about it?

anyone?


--------------------

woof.


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OfflineSickShroomer
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Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 361
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 3 years, 14 days
Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: SheepworkS]
    #5793331 - 06/26/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm interested as well. I used to use the 3 part nute system with my buds, and i got some left over, also i got SuperThrive.


--------------------
Going to miss the PNW gatherings.

I'm not here trying to make anyone feel stupid or to make myself feel good by putting ppl down. I am just here to help fellow shroomerites in there grows. I do this to keep my own knowledge fresh, and to help everyone succeed!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Posts: 6,899
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Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: SickShroomer]
    #5793488 - 06/26/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> NOT miracle grow, or similar.
> specifically: General Hydroponics 3 part nutes.

Ummm... You're talking about the N-P-K ratio and that's exactly what miracle grow is. It's what all chemical fertilizers are and it's required by law to be listed on the package. I'm surprised that they've managed to hype the NPK ratio as a "3 part nute system", but I suppose it is.

And to answer your questions, no. It's no good for mushies. At least that's what the conventional wisdom is and I'm sure it's been tried many times before. Also superthrive, with it's 50 vitamins and hormones, would be no help since our fungi don't respond to plant hormones and they are quite capable of synthesizing their own vitamins.


-FF


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OfflineBigBrassBed
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Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 33
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: fastfred]
    #5794249 - 06/26/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If anything, you want to add mycological peptones to your substrate.

-Brass


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: BigBrassBed]
    #5794319 - 06/26/06 10:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i don't understand the "conventional wisdom" conclusion we've reached here really... we know the N and P are good things, when in proper concentrations... and not just for 'cubes but for all sorts of edibles  (believe N is best for cubes at around 2.7%, not sure about the P exactly... and have no idea what if anything the K does for our purposes), but yeah, its likely most of the things in there besides those components (the hormones and trace elements) are of little or no use to mushrooms... but i still haven't written off the possibility of basic N-P-K "plant" fertilizer doing us some good, when applied correctly... after all, many of the things we use or add to substrates are also used as (drumroll please) organic sources of N-P-K (or parts thereof).  think manure, compost, worm castings, etc etc.  i think its that proper application we should look towards rather than straight up concluding "no that stuff is for plants and mushrooms aren't plants!"... i'd really like somebody to show something concrete that plant fertilizer is useless and/or harmful to mushroom growth... (either way i've got something about 2 weeks in the works thus far to find out for myself, because its something i have wondered already :smile:)

i've lately been using miracle grow moisture control potting soil as a casing mix, which has N-P-K fertilizer in it, and found that a) it doesn't contaminate as readily as everybody claims it would (in fact several cases later haven't shown a single contam even through 3 flushes), b) i get totally awesome pinsets and c) has certainly done no negative to my fruits!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: creamcorn]
    #5796898 - 06/27/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> i'd really like somebody to show something concrete that plant fertilizer is useless and/or harmful to mushroom growth...

It's been asked about many times and the consensus is that it doesn't work and is harmful to the myc. You have to remember that plants take basic inorganic elements and use photosynthesis to produce organic products like sugars and cellulose. Fungi decompose organics by breaking them down and using them. I don't think they have any way to use such basic inorganic substances. Nitrogen contained in organic molecules is different than straight chemically produced elemental nitrogen. It's two different types of "nitrogen content".

> (either way i've got something about 2 weeks in the works thus far to find out for myself, because its something i have wondered already )

Good luck to you. Hopefully you'll get some results that provide good evidence one way or the other. There are other types of fertilizing products that might be useful besides chemical fertilizers. Perhaps bone meal, blood meal, fish oil, etc. might work where inorganic fertilizers fail.


-FF


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: fastfred]
    #5796969 - 06/27/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well inorganic fertilizers aren't purely "elemental"... when you take a natural organic fertilizer, its action on plants works because of certain chemicals that are water soluble... so once water "leeches" these chemicals out, you end up with the same basic chemicals in the end.  its just that inorganic "man made" fertilizers are simply pure sources of these soluble materials... so where an organic variety slowly releases the chemicals over time, you're giving it up all in one quick shot by using something inorganic.  not only that, but the inorganic varieties are much more pure and concentrated... so the key i think will be to use it very very very very sparingly... and i don't think we necessarily need "slow release" here because the mushroom life cycle is so fast when compared to plant growth anyway.  when not done in a small enough quantity, you can burn mycelium (same can happen to plants when you over fertilize) which is why i've started with extremely small amounts and will work my way around from that, and which might have been a failing for others who tried... go overboard and see detrimental effects, and automatically assume its entirely bad... maybe so but maybe not!

i don't expect any conclusions or anything i'd consider evidence out of all this for quite a long time... as we know there's so much variability so don't anybody hold their breath. i just like to tinker with things people claim don't work... skepticism works both ways and i like to prove stuff to myself regardless, and so just like i won't be quick to jump to make a claim that "it worked for me" i can't so easily accept claims that it won't work until i see it... :smile:

i do have a feeling that in the end i'll realize its just a drawn out way of re-inventing the wheel, when nature already provides proper organic sources... but so be it :smile:


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Registered: 07/12/05
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Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: fastfred]
    #5797228 - 06/27/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Also superthrive, with it's 50 vitamins and hormones, would be no help since our fungi don't respond to plant hormones and they are quite capable of synthesizing their own vitamins.
-FF




Aren't vitamins defined as necessary chemicals our bodies cannot produce?


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: chemical nutrient additives [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5797915 - 06/28/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> Aren't vitamins defined as necessary chemicals our bodies cannot produce?

For humans that is somewhat true, although we do produce some of our needed vitamins. For example vitamin A, D, and niacin.

In simple organisms they usually produce all the vitamins they need from a carbon source and a few simple salts. If everything needed vitamins to grow then where would vitamins come from?

> well inorganic fertilizers aren't purely "elemental"...

Well, strictly speaking no, but they are as elemental as naturally occurs. Of the NPK mix... The nitrogen often comes from urea = (NH2)2CO or ammonium nitrate NH4NO3. The Phosphorus usually comes from ammonium phosphate (NH4)3PO4 or superphosphate. And the potassium comes from KCl or KNO3. That's about as simple as it gets. And it's way different from organic sources of these nutrients. It's not as simple as everything becoming the same when dissolved in water.

Anyway, good luck on your experiments.


-FF


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