Home | Community | Message Board

Avalon Magic Plants
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Feminized Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
    #5310805 - 02/17/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits.

"An investigation has revealed that you may have violated Title 18 U.S.C. Section 924(a)(1)(A), a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to five years," the letter began. The U.S. Code citation refers, in this instance, to knowingly making a false statement on the ATF Form 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-The-Counter," which is completed for each firearm purchased from a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL).

"The firearm that you purchased is being taken into ATF custody," the letter continued, citing no authority for the seizure.

Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) said the ATF letter and the reported interrogation of lawful gun buyers raise "serious questions."

"There's a way to have a sting operation that's legal. This dragnet, apparent dragnet, however, is not the way it ought to be done," Scott said. "You have to show probable cause and it can be done. But you ought not just stop people without probable cause and without any indication of guilt."

John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers.

"If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful.

"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. (A "straw purchaser" is a person who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm, but who does so with the intent to illegally provide it to an ineligible buyer such as a convicted felon or an illegal alien. "Straw purchases" are illegal.)

As Cybercast News Service initially reported, ATF agents working with as many as 400 state, county and city police officers near Richmond, Va., conducted so-called "residency checks" on individuals who purchased firearms from the Showmasters Gun Show Aug. 13 and 14, 2005. Uniformed officers went to the homes of prospective gun buyers, while they waited for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background checks to be completed and questioned family members and neighbors about the gun buyers' firearm purchasing habits.

In a subsequent report, Cybercast News Service detailed that ATF had conducted at least seven similar gun show "sting operations" targeting Richmond-area residents since July of 2004. ATF refused to discuss any of the operations with Cybercast News Service and refused to provide any documentation in response to Freedom of Information Act requests filed by the sponsors of the Richmond gun shows.

Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator who has worked with the America's Most Wanted television program, was hired by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to gather information about ATF's Richmond operations. During her investigation, she learned that the agency had been conducting "residency checks" in at least one other U.S. city, but using different and "much more intimidating" tactics.

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"

Federal law requires licensed gun dealers to complete an ATF Form 4473 for each firearm sold through their business, in addition to any forms required by the state, county and/or city where they do business. Private sales between individuals, who are not engaged in the firearms trade as a business, are subject to no such federal recordkeeping requirements. Therefore a gun show purchaser could legally sell or even give the gun they purchased to someone else yet have no paperwork to meet the ATF's demand.

"You and I know that, but [a woman who bought a gun and then gave or sold it to someone else, both legally] probably doesn't," McComas told Cybercast News Service. "If she can't produce it, they arrest her for a straw purchase and her life turns into a living hell until she can prove otherwise. It's zero probable cause except for the fact that they thought it was a straw purchase because she was black and she was young and she was female."

McComas questioned not only the legality of the ATF tactics in Pittsburgh, but also the methodology.

"When I asked them what their criteria was for the people that they collected the 4473s on at the Pittsburgh show, the answer I got back was, 'If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. That's all we need,'" McComas continued. "Translation: Under 30 and black, period. That's all they were looking for. Anyone who meets those criteria, they're doing a follow-up on."

She said that, as in Richmond, agents in Pittsburgh were also engaged in activities that gun dealers believe were designed to discourage lawful purchases by minorities.

"Anyone who was a minority, they picked up their 'tail,' if you will, and just followed them through the gun show. When they stopped at a table, the agents would literally stand on one side or the other and watch what they were doing. If they started to purchase a gun [the agents] would ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what did they need that gun for," McComas related. "It was ridiculous. There was absolutely no reason for it other than the color of their skin."

Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass.) said he had not intended to attend the hearing, which was held immediately after a subcommittee vote on an unrelated bill, but stayed because he was fascinated by the witnesses' testimony.

"These must be the dumbest ATF agents in the entire agency," Delahunt said. "I am absolutely shocked that they could be that stupid.

"It's almost to the point that it's difficult to believe," he added. "I have never heard of an experience like the ones you recount, but you all seem to be in agreement. It's just mind-boggling."

Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

Feeney suggested that, since ATF had refused to comply with the Freedom of Information Act requests from the gun show promoters, the subcommittee should request the information they were seeking. Coble noted that such a letter had already been sent.

ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office. ATF officials are expected to testify on the issues raised Wednesday in a second hearing scheduled for Feb. 28.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200602/SPE20060217a.html


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 21 hours
Re: Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5310907 - 02/17/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterMyco
Myco-fanatic
Male

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers [Re: daimyo]
    #5311592 - 02/17/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If thats a dead ATF agent, someone deserves a marksmanship badge.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5312701 - 02/18/06 03:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

mang, I am tellin you it is the dawning of a new world. A world in which if we ain't careful and willing to stand up for our rights the government will have us imprisoned with no means for a viable defense against tyranny, which every government ultimately aspires to.

Too bad there aren't enough people willing to make a stand. I for one would die before I let the man seize my rights, but not before I take some with me.

Its better to stand for something, than to fall for nothing.

I am a peaceable man for the most part, but I carry a very large stick. If you disturb my peace and violate the sanctity of my freedom be prepared to know my stick. I call it, "A Thugs Cry.".


--------------------
Asshole


Edited by nakors_junk_bag (02/18/06 03:42 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
Re: Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5315238 - 02/19/06 12:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The ATF has a long-standing history of hardons for illegal actions against law-abiding citizens in the name of gun control.

this time there's a republican congress and presidency -- so we won't hear how wonderful this was on the news, and there may actually be some real repurcussions against the agents responsible for this.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterMyco
Myco-fanatic
Male

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5317851 - 02/19/06 08:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

nakors_junk_bag said:

Too bad there aren't enough people willing to make a stand.  I for one would die before I let the  man seize my rights, but not before I take some with me.




The thing isn't being willing to die, it's being willing to kill :smile:


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #5318630 - 02/20/06 03:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> his time there's a republican congress and presidency

... neocon ...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Feminized Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* New Gun Protection SirTripAlot 888 14 10/23/05 03:07 AM
by z@z.com
* For You Gun Haters
( 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 all )
Sinistar 14,341 211 02/09/03 05:18 AM
by Evolving
* The False Promise of Gun Control
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,767 23 04/16/03 05:53 PM
by pattern
* top federal officials: animal rights extremists are most serious terrorism threat to the nation 1stimer 2,085 16 05/21/05 09:01 AM
by Grav
* Harassment, Gun Confiscation, and Judges daimyo 983 1 12/09/05 06:38 PM
by daimyo
* ATF Director Is Linked to Cost Overruns For New Building lonestar2004 513 4 02/06/06 08:49 PM
by Redstorm
* The Swiss and their Guns.
( 1 2 all )
lonestar2004 3,115 21 08/25/05 10:23 AM
by Alex213
* New Orleans gun confiscation stopped by court ZooDoggy 1,484 19 09/25/05 06:36 PM
by ZooDoggy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
778 topic views. 4 members, 4 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.024 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.