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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: raytrace]
    #5201742 -

Your proof doesn't address the question.

It is true that any given human has insufficient time to know everything. But it doesn't follow that any specific thing of the infinite number of things to choose from is unknowable by that same human.

Your proof shows not that any given mortal human cannot know some unspecified "unknowable" thing, it merely shows that any given mortal human cannot know everything there is to know (assuming an infinite number of things).

Try again.



Phred


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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: raytrace]
    #5201749 -

Quote:
Things A will never know are by definition things A cannot know.


I can truthfully state I will never know how many beans there were in a given bag of beans I passed by at the grocery store yesterday afternoon. Yet that does not mean the number of beans in that bag is unknowable. The person who bought that bag of beans could quite easily determine how many beans it contains.




Phred


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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5201756 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Accurate, compared to what?


More accurate representations of reality. :smirk:

How does one know which perception is a more accurate representation of reality? One doesn't. That's the point. Consensus might help to some small degree, however. :wink:

Quote:
Incorrect. Our experience of reality IS reality. If it were not, there would be no such existence of an experience.


Incorrect. Our experience of reality is an aspect of reality. In question is the experience (which exists, naturally :tongue:) of one's representations of other aspects of reality that one's senses are collecting sensory data of.

To state that our experience of reality is reality itself would be solipsism, a concept that I notice isn't exactly revered. :lol:

Quote:
First you say "reality is what it is", then you claim that it "cannot be known", as we do not "know reality", neglecting the fact that you are, in essence, claiming knowledge about it.


We can know our representation of reality, which is our perceptions based on the data that our sensory devices have collected by reacting to stimuli within reality itself. I am stating that reality itself cannot be perceived, only our collection of data from it. Thus, reality itself cannot be known as it is - it exists objectively and cannot be perceived.

The statement "reality is what it is" is derived from my representation of reality as I know it. Obviously, I cannot claim knowledge of reality itself. :wink:

Quote:
To those of you who hold we have Indirect Perception because of the fact that there is a specific, and complex process for such perception, I have a question. Can any of you provide examples of direct processes? Any sort of interaction that occurs in nature or wherever, that you would deem as direct?


Collision of atoms? I don't understand the question or its relevance to this discussion. By referring to a "specific, complex process for such perception", it would seem that you are not responding to my personal point of view that has been presented here, as my points does not concern how specific or complex the process for perception is. It involves the fact, evidenced even by the definitions of terms such as "perception" and "senses" that we do not perceive reality, but rather our data that is collected from reality by our sensory devices that react to stimuli in reality. In light of this, to declare that one directly perceives reality would not reflect the reality of the situation. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5201802 -

More accurate representations of reality.

How does one know which perception is a more accurate representation of reality? One doesn't.

Then your point is completely moot. What I am saying is, Objectively, all our perceptions and representations of reality is no more or less accurate than, say, a perception of reality from an Atomic point of view, or a cosmic point of view, or an insectoid point of view. Do you agree or disagree?

Thus, reality itself cannot be known as it is - it exists objectively and cannot be perceived.

And because Reality is Objective, and we are not seperate from Objective Reality, we are thus, also part of this Objective Reality - what I am saying is, we do percieve reality Objectively. Our means of cognitive functions and gaining knowledge from our environment are so, because it is a result of the Objective system of reality.

Our neurons that sense external reality can have many different states, each state is dependent on their interaction with reality. This is the case with all of our neurons. Our body's state, and the information that our brain operates on, are all parts of reality.

Obviously, I cannot claim knowledge of reality itself.

Water does not boil at -1 degrees Farhenheit. I have just claimed knowledge of reality.


All you are saying, is that there is a different perspective of reality which we do not have cognitive access to, outside of our natural and man-made means of cognition [overlooking the inferential knowledge - ahem]. I do not disagree with this at all. What I am disagreeing with, is the postulation that this perspective of reality is somehow more "valid" than that which we [or ALL other limited, and natural beings in existence] experience.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5203207 -

Can any of you provide examples of direct processes? Any sort of interaction that occurs in nature or wherever, that you would deem as direct?

I currently can't think of any indirect process which occur in nature, except maybe for quantum entanglement and similar quantum theories. Unfortunately, I don't know much about quantum physics so I can't say these processes are actually indirect, they may just seem indirect. Wouldn't an indirect process violate causality?

"Indirect Perception" is not synonymous with "indirect processes". Indirect perception is a result of neural process which follows causality. The debate between direct perception and indirect perception consists of whether our 'models of reality' are 1:1 or not. Currently, it appears we have many different forms of perception, some direct while others are indirect. As you pointed out earlier, sometimes our perceptions of an object can change depending on our previous knowledge. This is an example of indirect perception. Our percept of that object is based on external stimuli plus our expectations of it.

What you seem to be arguing, unless I misunderstand, is that our perceptions of reality aren't representations at all, which is an entirely different debate.

Water does not boil at -1 degrees Fahrenheit. I have just claimed knowledge of reality.

"Degree" is a human concept which represents a state of energy. But, I'm still undecided whether you can extrapolate a concept-of-Reality to Reality and label it "knowledge."  :confused:

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5204437 -

Are certain things unknowable?

I personally believe that in the final analysis of all things that there will always be that layer below that we dont understand. We can analyze what its made of until we decipher it, but there will always be a layer underneath it. This, I believe, is the only thing our human reason is not capable of 'figuring out (to our satisfaction at least)', not saying human reason is reliable or particularly good at all, just that it has somewhat worked. This is why I have faith in something more then human intelligence (not that I can define the nature of my so called god, I prefer intelligence). I think humans have evolved to be capable of faith and have not evolved to be incapable of faith.

My point being:

molecules < atoms < positron/electron < sub atomic particles < ?quirks (now were talking theory) < fluffy bunnies < the Energizer bunny < field bunnies < field mice < domesticated dogs < mummified cats.

Point is that is NEVER ends and we will never know the true nature of the universe unless human reason significantly evolves which it apparently hasn't since we've gained this ability.

Edited by Gratos (01/20/06 09:48 PM)

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Gratos]
    #5204494 -

"Are certain things unknowable?"

Does that mean you have to be able to put them into words,
or to make sense of it with science or logic?

If it doesn't, then no. The world is yours to know.

However, we may be unable to figure out many things, it all depends on what you're trying to learn. If you're trying to discover the meaning of life, well then the answer lies within your heart. If you want to discover where the spawn of human life comes from, well, that may be harder, and/or inachievable from lack of information or reasources. However, if you want to know about pure bliss and enlightment, then such information is knowledgable from within the depths of your body, mind and soul.

Edited by lysergicide (01/20/06 10:03 PM)

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Phred]
    #5205677 -

The proof is not about mortal humans, it is about experiencing units, though 'mortal humans' is a subset of 'experiencing units'.

I can truthfully state I will never know how many beans there were in a given bag of beans [...] the person who bought that bag of beans could quite easily determine how many beans it contains.
I won't argue things already being argued in this thread.

Try again
I can keep devising different proofs and you can keep denying them one after the other. Not my ideal of spending free time. Of course 'unknowable things' do not 'exist', but not in the way this is posed in this thread. However, I?ll play around a little bit.

Phred, does an 'algorithm' exist?

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: raytrace]
    #5205686 -

Quote:
The proof is not about mortal humans, it is about experiencing units, though 'mortal humans' is a subset of 'experiencing units'.


That is beside the point. The "proof" doesn't address the question being asked. The question is not "Is it possible for any single experiencing unit to know everything in an infinite universe."



Phred


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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Phred]
    #5205747 -

I have proved that "for every experiencing unit, there are things the unit will never know" (whether finite or infinite)

But also Phred, please answer my question. Does an 'algorithm' exist?

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: raytrace]
    #5206432 -

I'll answer it for him. People have a hard time answering questions when emotionally invested in the debate.

Nope. Numbers co-relate with reality; they do not directly relate.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: raytrace]
    #5206477 -

Quote:
I have proved that "for every experiencing unit, there are things the unit will never know" (whether finite or infinite)


So you have. However, that is not the question being asked.

Do algorithms exist? Certainly. What does that have to do with whether certain things are unknowable?




Phred


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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Phred]
    #5206488 -

Where do algorithms exist?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: psyka]
    #5208660 -

Raytrace and Mushman,

As Aristotle pointed out, the concept of "infinity" denotes merely a potentiality of indefinite addition or subdivision. For example, one can continually subdivide a line; but however many segments one has reached at a given point, there are only that many and no more. The actual is always finite.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Phred]
    #5209614 -

In computing, the Halting Problem is:

Given a description of a program and its initial input, determine whether the program, when executed on this input, ever halts (completes). The alternative is that it runs forever without halting.

The halting problem is undecidable over Turing machines. Alan Turing proved that a general algorithm to solve the halting problem for all possible inputs cannot exist.

Martin Davis in 1958 (Computability and Unsolvability , McGraw-Hill, New York) proved that: There exists a Turing machine whose halting problem is unsolvable

This means that there exist programs that it is impossible to know whether they will halt or not (they may or may not fall into infinite loops).

Therefore, there exist things that cannot be known.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5210410 -

Are all Swans white? To know all swans are white, we would have to find all the Swans, but to be able to know you've found all the swans would require omniscience. There could be a black swan hiding in a cellar somewhere.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5210428 -

Or find one non-white swan.  :shrug:


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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Veritas]
    #5210513 -

Shhhh!

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5210543 -

:rotfl:

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5211323 -

MushmanTheManic said:
Are all Swans white? To know all swans are white, we would have to find all the Swans, but to be able to know you've found all the swans would require omniscience. There could be a black swan hiding in a cellar somewhere.


As I hinted in the original post, and elaborate further here, it is not, in principle, impossible for us to know THAT a particular thing exists [though it may be impossible for us to know WHAT it is]. This escapes the omniscience charge.

For example, I will never know what every word Aristotle uttered in his lifetime, but I know that he uttered words.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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