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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5185113 -

Man percieves reality directly, not some kind of effects different from it.

If this is true, how do you explain optical illusions? Do after-images exist in Reality? Our emotions and expectations have the ability to change our perceptions and sensations, you suggest they have the ability to change Reality too?

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5185115 -

Your entire argument seems to rely on the temporal nature of knowledge, which is, in itself, an interesting philosophical problem.

To the medieval people, the existence of other galaxies was not unknowable, but rather, they lacked the tools to filter the knowledge into their perception. The question is, was it actually ever outside of the doors of perception?

I purposely did not state anything which I would consider unknowable in my post, because it relies entirely upon the doors of perception, and in the future, they will be much more enhanced than they are today. Matters unknowable today, such as strings, may be viewed tomorrow as tools allow our experience to delve ever deeper into our surroundings.

Therefore, to be unknowable, the hypothetical object must either have the property of never being able to be perceived or experienced, or it must not be nonexistent. Interestingly enough, nonexistence itself is unknowable, and is in fact the most unambiguously unknowable aspect (or should we say non-aspect) that doesn't exist.

If we believe that God exists, then would God be unknowable? To say God is knowable would mean to say that he can fit through the doors of our perception, whether in the present or in the future, yet some would say this is an impossibility. If you believe there is a point at which an object or concept is too vast to ever be experienced or perceived, no matter how advanced our tools, then it is unknowable, yet could still hypothetically exist (though I do not personally believe God exists; nevertheless, he is a good example).

Quote:
Under that definition, objective reality is knowable, through man's consciousness and means of cognition.


I disagree. If objective reality exists, then the small fragments we receive of it are first filtered through our perception and experienced by our subjective mind, which would make it a subjective reality. Objective reality is an ancient concept, like objective time, which does not seem to fit with current logic. General relativity spoke of the importance of the subjective viewer in creating his own impression of spacetime; likewise, the subjectivity also contributes to our view of reality and knowledge, therefore making any objective reality a logical impossiblity, due to the fact that every observer is subjective.

Therefore, objective reality and objective time could both be said to be unknowable, due to the fact that they can never be experienced by a subjective observer (and possibly due to the fact that neither of them exist.)

Excuse a typo in my earlier post, I meant:
Therefore, if indeed other people around us have consciousness (which is unknowable to every individual in itself) then it is possible for something unknowable to one human being to be completely knowable to the other, based upon the system on which the individual attains knowledge.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5185672 -

OF COURSE THERE IS THE UNKNOWABLE, THERE IS KNOWABLE SHIT RIGHT?
OF COURSE THERE IS THE UNKNOWABLE, THERE IS KNOWABLE SHIT RIGHT?
OF COURSE THERE IS THE UNKNOWABLE, THERE IS KNOWABLE SHIT RIGHT?
OF COURSE THERE IS THE UNKNOWABLE, THERE IS KNOWABLE SHIT RIGHT?
QED(Proof by repetition)
----------------------------------------------------------------
fuck yes to the Tao that can be said is not the true Tao
--- - - - --- - - - --- - - - --- - - - --- - - - --- - - - --- - - -
and...
why do hardcore logic lovers bust nuts over "opposites" like possible and impossible?! all is one, no!? if the universe is selfsustaining (which it is..it makes so sense whatever to me, but eh) you have to accecpt that nonsensical circular arguments have some truth to them. logic is absolute shit without bullshit axioms anyways.

'cold' logic, fook that! it is such a small chunk of the larger logic. the logic you adore is like a game of chess. it doesnt mean shit when its said and done, it is just fun and it works... but chess will not save your country from Mongolians.

by the way, i dunno who i'm talking to anymore when i say 'you' so if this stirs you up to get pissed or something, then go ahead, thats for you :grin:


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-------------------
peace with everystep

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186152 -

I believe the opposite. Nothing is knowable, all our knowledge is just a representation of reality; not that which really is.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: swampthing]
    #5186176 -

If this is true, how do you explain optical illusions?

Just as you can explain hallucinations - physiological phenomena relating to our organs of perception, nothing more, nothing less. The fact that we have optical illusions does not change the fact that we are still percieving reality directly through our senses. There are other creatures who may not be able to percieve the things us humans are, but they still directly percieve the same reality, through their own means of cognition. Atomic perception is no more or less valid than human perception.

Do after-images exist in Reality?

In reality, if they did not exist [physiologically], we would not experience such physiological phenomena in the first place.

Our emotions and expectations have the ability to change our perceptions and sensations, you suggest they have the ability to change Reality too?

No, of course not. Emotions can affect our perceptions of reality, insofar as physiological effects go.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186213 -

Your entire argument seems to rely on the temporal nature of knowledge, which is, in itself, an interesting philosophical problem.

Your argument seems to rely on the rejection of man's senses as valid tools of cognition. Which is, in itself, a philisophical prejudice.

To the medieval people, the existence of other galaxies was not unknowable, but rather, they lacked the tools to filter the knowledge into their perception.

Correct - galaxies existed, hence they were knowable.

The question is, was it actually ever outside of the doors of perception?

Have galaxies ever existed outside man's perception, prior to man's discover of galaxies? There are internal organs that were outside of many, many people's perception in the medieval ages, yet they most certainly existed as the homo sapien which evolved from earlier species couldn't have furthered their existence without their kidneys and bladder.


Matters unknowable today, such as strings, may be viewed tomorrow as tools allow our experience to delve ever deeper into our surroundings.

Overlooking your reference to strings[?] being unknowable, I agree if by unknowable, you mean "not-currently-known". If you mean something which "cannot be known", then I disagree.

Therefore, to be unknowable, the hypothetical object must either have the property of never being able to be perceived or experienced, or it must not be nonexistent.

An object which cannot be known whether directly or inferentially, is a nonexistent object. There is a difference between an object which cannot be known, and an object which is able to be known, but is or would not yet be.

Interestingly enough, nonexistence itself is unknowable, and is in fact the most unambiguously unknowable aspect (or should we say non-aspect) that doesn't exist.

Non-existence is a concept that is meaningless by itself. It isn't something. It is a relational concept, gaining meaning only in comparison to another concept. Nothing, or non-existence, is that which doesn't exist. It is not a metaphysical entity. It doesn't exist. It has no identity. It is not an object. It has no identity. It's not a vacuum. It's not dark. It's not cold. It has no characteristics. As a tool of cognition, it can be useful, but doesn't exist.

I disagree. If objective reality exists, then the small fragments we receive of it are first filtered through our perception and experienced by our subjective mind, which would make it a subjective reality.

I disagree. Our means of cognitive functions and gaining knowledge from our environment are not subjective [arbitrary or created by [one's] feelings, desires, 'intuitions,' or whims] because it is a result of the objective system of reality. This isn't to say that we don't have subjective [defined as unique to our individual persona] experience, but this does not mean knowledge is generated from the mind, without reference to reality. I do not follow that all of our experience is entirely arbitrary, as this would imply our senses to be invalid. If the senses are not valid, if they are not instruments that provide a knowledge of reality, then neither are concepts [including your very own], and the whole cognitive enterprise is aborted.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: psyka]
    #5186226 -

psyka said:
I believe the opposite. Nothing is knowable, all our knowledge is just a representation of reality; not that which really is.


Knowledge: Water does not boil at -32 degrees Fahrenheit. How is this article of knowledge not pertinent to reality?



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186243 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Yet, as evidenced by communication of the Eternal Tao, there is inferential knowledge of the Eternal Tao. Thus, it is knowable, because it exists. If it did not exist, in one form or another, then there could not [not to be confused with "would not"] be any knowledge or communication of it.


It is knowable as it exists as a concept. It isn't necessary for the existance of a God within reality for a concept of God to exist within one's mind. The fact that one can conceptualize it and know it as a concept does not mean that it actually has any basis as an actual aspect of reality.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186251 -

SkorpivoMusterion said:
The fact that we have a cognitive system which employs our faculty of perception and senses, does not change the fact that reality is knowable.


It doesn't change the fact that reality is knowable, but it does imply that reality is knowable only in the manner that one's perception and senses allow it to be. Reality might be knowable through our senses and perceptions, but this does not mean that Reality itself actually resembles the manner in which we perceive and sense it.

The way I see reality as existing through my limited interactions does not form an actual representation of the way reality exists. I realize that the only manner in which I can see reality as existing is through my limited interactions within reality, but I always accept the fact that it is merely my subjective reality, and that the nature of my perceptions implies that no objective reality can be known by myself objectively.

The fact that I can know a conceptual aspect of reality does not mean that the suspossed actual aspect of reality represented by this concept is not unknowable. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5186279 -

It is knowable as it exists as a concept. It isn't necessary for the existance of a God within reality for a concept of God to exist within one's mind. The fact that one can conceptualize it and know it as a concept does not mean that it actually has any basis as an actual aspect of reality.

Right, as you'll see, I worded: If it did not exist, in one form or another.. I was aware that it can either be an imaginary existence or an objective existence.


It doesn't change the fact that reality is knowable, but it does imply that reality is knowable only in the manner that one's perception and senses allow it to be. Reality might be knowable through our senses and perceptions, but this does not mean that Reality itself actually resembles the manner in which we perceive and sense it.

The fact that we have a conditional [read: human] means of cognition and perception, does not negate the validity of our perceptual and sensual input. Because we have a different aspect of reality, does not mean that our aspect is not congruent to reality. What would be the one and only correct resemblence of reality? To use an analogy, take two pictures of the same apple. One picture shows the macroscopic version, whereas the other picture shows the microscopic version within the apple. Are both perceptions somehow not congruent with the "true" resemblence of the apple?

No type of sense perception can register everything. A is A - and any perceptual apparatus is limited. By virtue of being able directly to discriminate one aspect of reality, a consciousness cannot discriminate some other aspect that would require a different kind of sense organs. Whatever facts the senses do register, however, are facts. And these facts are what lead a mind eventually to the rest of its knowledge.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186286 -

Skorp, its more like 31.875629249403943... degrees Fahrenheit. Its never just 32. Although, 32 represents a number close enough :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186649 -

My (humble) thought about that:
What does a murderer do, to make his deeds 'unknowable' for others. (I don't know, why I have to use this example here in P&S so often :shrug:)
As such, existence and (un-)knowability do not exclude eachother.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5186671 -

Herr Apfelstrudel,

(I don't know, why I have to use this example here in P&S so often )

LOL. Red flag!

What does a murderer do, to make his deeds 'unknowable' for others.

Do you realize the fact that the murderer knows his deeds, shows that his deeds are knowable? Also, keep in mind of the specific definiton of unknowable to which has been stated from the very beginning of this thread: That which, by its nature, is impossible to know, whether directly or inferentially.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5186911 -

Achtung, the Krautt is coming... all in full Deckung behind the Sch?tzengraben !
:lol:

So, if the murderer is dead, the murder does not exist (edit: anymore) ?
:grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/16/06 03:00 PM)

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5187558 -

I've read through this whole thread and from what I can tell, Skorp is addressing everything beyond this part of the quote he shared and everyone else has been addressing this one line. This thread has read with that askew from my perception anyway.


Quote:
-without knowledge to justify it, then this is plain irrationalism.


I think what others are responding to is the idea that just because we may not yet have the knowledge of how  to justify the existence of something doesn't mean, it doesn't exist as something we can know.

I think that that sentence may have been taken out of context. I know it read like a clanker to me on its own.

The author of the quote you shared only applied that to claims of something unknowable though, not the stuff we say we know to be so because we experienced it.

Maybe that will clear some misunderstandings up.

If you say something is known to you and have not the knowledge of how to justify its existence yet, it remains in the knowable field of existence though so is exempt from that comment.

The guy just said its irrational to say something is unknowable while saying you know it is unknowable. If you know its unknowable then you must know something about. So to say it is unknowable is not an irrationalism to me, its more like an oxy-moron.:lol:

Like with this knowable Tao and unknowable Tao. The unknowable Tao become knowable as we understand and realize it along the way and that journey has no beginning or end.

To say, there is something out there that can never be known or understood in any light small or or large in anyway shape, context or form ever ever ever is .........talking about something that may as well not exist.

Does it mean it doesn't? Maybe that is what is/has been up for debate.

If you can justify it in someway that it does exist, then you have begun the process of getting to know it in some light, way, shape context or form.

And from out of the nothing to be known, comes something to know after all................

Funny dynamic.

Is that how circular abstract logic works?:lol:
Is that how the Tao actually works? :shrug:
Is that how multi dimensional manifestation works? :crazy2:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? *DELETED* [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5187782 -

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x


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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: poke smot!]
    #5187800 -

Interesting perspective. Bottom line remains, however, antimatter is knowable.

Jiggy, you kinda lost me there. You and I really speak different tongues!



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5187842 -

human nature means that much is unknowable. this is subject to review depending on how much we evolve before our race becomes extinct.


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5187883 -

:lol: In a way, I was agreeing with the quote,  after, I worked through it numerous to get clear on the contexts he was using. I still agreed with others in what they were saying in the contexts they were using.

The only place where we differ skorp really is that where you say something does not exist, I say it may as well not exist. I can't speak in as absolute terms as you do and feel so sure or comfortable.

Thats where our tongues differ. You are way more comfortable speaking in absolutes then I am.

There are lots of things I let myself feel sure of and let myself count on because its what gets me through the day. Yet, in the big scheme of things, I can't be 100% sure I even exist the way I think I do.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Are certain things unknowable? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5187968 -

Ah, okay.

Question, though:

Yet, in the big scheme of things, I can't be 100% sure I even exist the way I think I do.

With that said, tell me what goes through your mind, when you read this:

"We know that we know nothing," they chatter, blanking out the fact that they are claiming knowledge -- "There are no absolutes," they chatter, blanking out the fact that they are uttering an absolute -- "You cannot prove that you exist or that you're conscious," they chatter, blanking out the fact that proof presupposes existence, consciousness and a complex chain of knowledge: the existence of something to know, or a consciousness able to know it, and of a knowledge that has learned to distinguish between such concepts as the proved and the unproved.
Miss Ayn Rand

Does it change or make you re-consider your stance that you may not even exist?
I'm really curious what goes on in your mind, when you think about this. Please, share. I won't even debate it, I'd just like to see what you see, for curiousity's sake.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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