Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: looner2]
    #5114140 -

Capitalism promotes growth and wealth of the entire nation, thereby by passing the individual and giving more overall wealth to everybody

Trouble with this theory is that it doesn't work. All the richest countries in the world have had enormous state intervention all through their history.

Everywhere free market theories have been tried has resulted in complete economic disaster. Indonesia, Argentina, you name it. Implementing free market policies over the last 25 years has resulted in the results seen below:

This paper looks at the major economic and social indicators for all countries for which data are available, and compares the last 20 years of globalization (1980-2000) with the previous 20 years (1960-1980). These indicators include: the growth of income per person, life expectancy, mortality among infants, children, and adults, literacy, and education.

For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equal groups, according to what level the countries had achieved by the start of the period (1960 or 1980). Among the findings:

? Growth: The fall in economic growth rates was most pronounced and across the board for all groups or countries. The poorest group went from a per capita GDP growth rate of 1.9 percent annually in 1960-80, to a decline of 0.5 percent per year (1980-2000). For the middle group (which includes mostly poor countries), there was a sharp decline from an annual per capita growth rate of 3.6 percent to just less than 1 percent. Over a 20-year period, this represents the difference between doubling income per person, versus increasing it by just 21 percent. The other groups also showed substantial declines in growth rates.

? Life Expectancy: Progress in life expectancy was also reduced for 4 out of the 5 groups of countries, with the exception of the highest group (life expectancy 69-76 years). The sharpest slowdown was in the second to worst group (life expectancy between 44-53 years). Reduced progress in life expectancy and other health outcomes cannot be explained by the AIDS pandemic.

? Infant and Child Mortality: Progress in reducing infant mortality was also considerably slower during the period of globalization (1980-1998) than over the previous two decades. The biggest declines in progress were for the middle to worst performing groups. Progress in reducing child mortality (under 5) was also slower for the middle to worst performing groups of countries.

? Education and literacy: Progress in education also slowed during the period of globalization. The rate of growth of primary, secondary, and tertiary (post-secondary) school enrollment was slower for most groups of countries. There are some exceptions, but these tend to be concentrated among the better performing groups of countries. By almost every measure of education, including literacy rates, the middle and poorer performing groups saw less rapid progress in the period of globalization than in the prior two decades. The rate of growth of public spending on education, as a share of GDP, also slowed across all groups of countries.


http://www.attac.org/fra/toil/doc/cepr05.htm

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: Alex213]
    #5114557 -

And of course the last time the laissez-faire boys held sway it resulted in the Great Depression and the subsequent second world war. Everyone understood then that their theories simply didn't work and it wasn't until 1980 that they reared their ugly heads again with the same old proven bankrupt philosphy.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: Alex213]
    #5114619 -

Alex, unfortunately for both you and the laissez-faire crowd, reality isn't so simple. It's true that there have been unsuccessful experiments in free markets like the ones you described, but there have also been extremely successful ones like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea. These four places all became much more prosperous after opening up their markets. Of course, what many free-marketers leave out is that they also all had succesful land reforms that ensured equitable distribution of land, and took up a good amount of the land rent. In case you hadn't noticed, China has also been doing rather well ever since implementing free-market reforms. Now, many of laissez-faire crowd are likely to point to this and say that it proves that the freer the market, the more prosperous the people are. However, that would be just as oversimplistic as your statements. China has maintained state control over industries such as steel or lumber(in other words, raw materials). This has worked out rather successfully for them.

The point I'm making is simple: The world isn't black and white. There are cases in which government intervention can help, or even be necessary. However, the market usually does its job just fine, and to assume that just because intervention sometimes helps that it always does is just as naive as thinking that the free market will solve all those problems.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: Silversoul]
    #5115069 -

very true, Paradigm. to discount the entire chicago school of laissez faire free-market economics is to discount reality. (as well as accepting the entire school is to equally discount reality).

what i think would be interesting is a combination of laissez faire style economics, with a different paradigm of intellectual property (for example, a GNU paradigm). this might rule out some of the monopoly and stagnation inherent in "free market capitalism" and result in a more dynamic symbiosis...


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: looner2]
    #5115219 -

What part of Rand's political views do you see as psychobabble?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: Redstorm]
    #5115743 -

I don't know about any of you but I thought looner was being facetious. Anybody who posits a selfless state (either personal or political) is obviously a fool.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5115762 -

Agreed.

That's why I was confused when he criticized the idea of a selfless person, and then criticized Rand.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: Redstorm]
    #5115916 -

Sorry to be a lazy ass but can someone just post a link to the torrents instead of the registry-required forum?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: Tao]
    #5116341 -
Log in to view attachment

Part 1


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5116342 -
Log in to view attachment

Part 2


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5116344 -
Log in to view attachment

Part 3


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5116345 -
Log in to view attachment

Part 4


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5116346 -
Log in to view attachment

Part 5


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5117429 -

For the life of me I can't get the whole bit torrent thing to work for me. I downloaded the program, I don't know if I did it correctly. I then downloaded the file and it took hours. When I click on it it tells me I have bad file info. I don't know where I fucked up. I am a hopeless idiot with this.

Man does that piss me off.

And why do some of you lamebrains give Alex a free pass on Argentina and Indonesia as examples of free markets gone wrong.

You go back 100 years, and Argentina was one of the top 5 wealthiest countries in the world. They had unbelieveable wealth just a century ago. 100 years later they are just coming off bankruptcy and market collapse.

What happened inbetween? They instituted a system of state run monopoloies with no competition. Some free market. And when was the Indonesian dictatorship a bastion of free markets?

I try not to respond to Alex, but you sheeple giving him an ounce of credit piss me off. Argentina's publicly run monopolies have more in common with a communist system of central planning than they do with true free markets. The healthiest economy in South America is Chile, and Milton and the Chicago Boyz had something to do with that. And the free market reforms in China came shortly after he visted and lectured there.

Milton is a God. Bow down and respect his greatness.

And somebody teach me this damn bit torrent thing. Man does that piss me off. You all piss me off. Off with your heads!


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5117641 -

Has someone been drinking again? :wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5118303 -

You might not have the video codec needed to view the file...do you know if you have something called "DivX" installed on your computer?

If not, grab this and install it. When you are installing, MAKE SURE the option "Decode all supported FourCCs" is CHECKED.

http://download.divxmovies.com/XviD-1.0.3-20122004.exe

Then try to open the avi file again. If that doesn't work, let me know.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5118610 -

I try not to respond to Alex

You don't know how happy that makes me.

The healthiest economy in South America is Chile, and Milton and the Chicago Boyz had something to do with that. And the free market reforms in China came shortly after he visted and lectured there.

It was healthy under Allende who followed the exact opposite of Miltons theories.

Once Allende was overthrown and the nightmarish right-wing dictator Pinochet was installed Milton and the boys had a good pal and could implement their theories. Makes a mockery of Milton's theory that political freedom and free markets go hand in hand doesn't it.

Have you got any more info on that "banned in france" thing you were talking about?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5120793 -

trendal said:
You might not have the video codec needed to view the file...do you know if you have something called "DivX" installed on your computer?

If not, grab this and install it. When you are installing, MAKE SURE the option "Decode all supported FourCCs" is CHECKED.

http://download.divxmovies.com/XviD-1.0.3-20122004.exe

Then try to open the avi file again. If that doesn't work, let me know.



WOO HOO! YOU ARE THE MAN!


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: trendal]
    #5121087 -

Thanks for the links :smile: !! :thumbup:

I watched the first and I was quite disappointed--very basic free market concepts it seemed to me.  The debate at the end would have saved it if only it had been a bit longer and the arguments (particularly the evidence) had been drawn out.

Hopefully it gets better?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5125214 -

WOO HOO! YOU ARE THE MAN!

Have you got any more info on your claim that Friedman was banned in France?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Milton Friedman on the Drug War
( 1 2 all )
JesusChrist 2,631 32 12/15/04 07:48 PM
by EonTan
* Milton Friedman: Legalize It! JesusChrist 680 5 06/06/05 06:02 AM
by GazzBut
* Milton's NOT so good ideas... Xlea321 2,717 6 12/19/04 05:50 AM
by GazzBut
* Milton's NOT So good ideas... GazzBut 790 13 06/07/05 05:43 AM
by GazzBut
* Nuke London and Washington
( 1 2 all )
Armageddon 3,110 32 01/18/05 04:34 PM
by Armageddon
* Friedman on Discovery times channel looner2 579 4 12/01/05 11:15 AM
by Krishna
* Anarchists being harrased y police/ May Day Riots PGF 1,612 3 06/04/02 08:49 AM
by hongomon
* The Reluctant Anarchist Evolving 2,091 17 06/12/04 09:27 PM
by RandalFlagg

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
2,715 topic views. 1 members, 19 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 16 queries.