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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Love, a universal force.
    #475835 - 12/01/01 08:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Were to start o may I say why to start this topic; perhaps it is because it makes me feel uncomfortable, Love does and I don?t now why.
Beginnings first, in most of my trips I reach a state of absolute bliss, I am in tune with a universal force so strong that overloads me which I can only call it Love, now this is not the love I grown up to now, this force is what makes the galaxies spin around and is the stuff that?s in between atoms and I can say that when I am in this state I am closer to God (no denomination) that I have ever been, I also realize how stupid I am in my normal state of consciousness, stupid for not letting this force flow thru me, for rejecting it with almost fear to feel.
I must ask why is it that I and most people that I know have such a blockage inside to have this force flow thru us, that we choose pain and suffering its incomprehensible to me but yet I choose those things from time to time perhaps is because I forget that Love is real or that is our work as spiritual beings to unblock our self?s and to have this force run thru us.
I am not sure of the answer, but I try now in my normal state of being to remember and connect with that feeling and just letting it flow, with the hope that it will unblock me so that love will run true me aging.

Just ramblings of a mad man.


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Anonymous

Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: LOBO]
    #475837 - 12/01/01 08:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The Universe was Created out of Love


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InvisibleThe_Clash_UK
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Registered: 09/11/01
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: ]
    #475890 - 12/01/01 10:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All you need is love


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Crash a cig guvnor?


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OfflineTimeleech
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: LOBO]
    #475896 - 12/01/01 11:07 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To take the last first:
>I am not sure of the answer, but I try now in my normal state of being to remember and connect with that feeling and just letting it flow, with the hope that it will unblock me so that love will run true me aging.

that does definately not seem like mad ramblings to me. It is a very difficult thing to do, but being on this path is you can not go wrong. It is a very good basis (if not *the* besst) to have, imho.

>...realize how stupid I am in my normal state of consciousness, stupid for not letting this force flow thru me, for rejecting it with almost fear to feel.

You are not stupid, just human. It is the nature of these things to come in bursts. It takes extreme devotion to live these feelings constantly. (you need to be a "yogi" or at least have the same devotion).

>I must ask why is it that I and most people that I know have such a blockage inside to have this force flow thru us, that we choose pain and suffering
You can come up with countless theories about that (I have a few myself), but the fact remains that it is the nature of humans to act in that way.

>its incomprehensible to me but yet I choose those things from time to time perhaps is because I forget that Love is real or that is our work as spiritual beings to unblock our self?s and to have this force run thru us.

I think we get too easily distracted by the physical/material world and therefore quickly loose sight of this force.

Many (most?) people have problems expressing their love, no matter what kind of love. Iv'e had experiences, but I couldn't have spoken my feelings out loud. Can you imagine; at the beginning of a 5 hour long bus trip somebody in the back stands up and proclaim:
"I am happy to be here with you people today, I am excited that we join as fellow human beings on this journey that we do together. I love you all!" And then sits down with a tear in his eye?
I chose to stay put, but the feelings, and the tear, were there no less.

This is an extreme cause, many people can't even tell their parents flat-out for no reason at all that they love them. Or vice versa. (even if they do love each other) But don't worry about it. Just let yourself feel it, and little by little express your feelings. No need to embrace all your friends next time you see them, just let them know you appreciate them.

Plant the seed of love, nurture it, let it grow, then pick the leaves and smoke them! :laugh:


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: LOBO]
    #475967 - 12/01/01 12:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It is fine to say things such as the Universe was created out of Love, and all you need is Love, but they're really more observations than answers. As observations, I do not dispute them, and certainly an observation can breed understanding through pondering the observation itself...but I think the easiest way to understand /why/ love would be a Universal force is to simply understand what /love/ is.

If we take the cultural view of love, it is merely the force of attraction and attachment derived between individuals - though it primarily it is used to describe pair-bonding between potential mates. This is the easiest manifestation of love - the process of attachment to a mate. But this is obviously not /all/ that love is. There are other manifestations of love that are almost completely different!

Love as it applies to family members is a good example. Love as it applies to pair-bonding mates relies primairly upon physical attraction (initially) and trust (secondary) to create a situation favorable for mutual intra-supportive stability (primary) and producing children (secondary). The love generated between family members is somewhat the same, but the intentions are not entirely the same. For instance, the love between a mother and a son is /usually/ not about producing children yet the presence of what we call 'love' is still an essential part of the relationship. That leaves intra-supportive stability as the motivation behind the sensation of love... and we could leave love defined as that with some satisfaction. But only some.

It is easy to look at the seemingly 'normal' case studies of love and reduce what is going on down to words. But love also occurs outside normal cercumstances. An abused wife usually still 'loves' her husband even though stability has dissolved and the situation has become behaviorally unsuitable for producing children. A person can love an animal companion such as a pet - many people love their dogs to such extents that they are willing to pay for thousands of dollars worth of surgery to keep them alive. And then there are other sorts of more abstract love; one can /love/ nature, one can /love/ money, one can /love/ god, one can /love/ their car. What do all of these things called 'love', as well as love between seemingly 'normal' people have in common? The answer is fairly simple...Self-reflection.

When you love money, you love it because it represents something to /you/ - it is a clear and familiar symbol - it represents security or perhaps power. Your car does the same thing, through the process of familiarity with the car it takes on symbolic meaning - it reflects back upon you some aspect of yourself. And this is much the same as what occurs with people - one's attachment to one's lover is largely derived because of what that person /represents/ - we see ourselves /more clearly/ through their eyes. We understand ourselves more through them, so much so that they /become a part of us/.

And this doesn't conflict at all with the observations made - God is love, the Universe was made from love. God is ultimate self-reflection, the reflection of all things upon self and the illumination wrought from the understanding derived from that reflection. The universe is God, and thusly, all things within the Universe have the potential (and do) produce love by forcing us to reflect upon ourselves from a transpersonal perspective. And when we understand ourselves, we understand the relationships between everything and ourselves. In short, love is an increment of enlightenment - the bliss derived from love is just that. This explains why when two 'lovers' stay with one another long enough, the initial feeling of love looses it's 'edge'. You become comfortable with the notion of relfection projection by your partner. Right up until the moment of loss. When we loose something that we love, what we're really loosing is the physical manifestation of that part of ourselves that is reflected by that person or thing.

'You can never know the depth of love until the moment of seperation.'

Ish


Edited by Ishmael (12/01/01 12:57 PM)


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Ishmael]
    #476190 - 12/01/01 05:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps I did not make my self clear, and is probably my fault of trying to explain something of this nature, but what I felt is not what you are describing like, the infatuation between couples, I am talking abut a force that is voided of ego, impersonal a force that permeates every thing (is the best I could explain it) it is not what commonly people take for love.


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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: LOBO]
    #476248 - 12/01/01 06:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No, I understood you fine. I'm wondering though if you understood me - or perhaps simply skimmed over what I said once you got to the part about 'couples in love'.

Ish


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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/30/99
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: LOBO]
    #476324 - 12/01/01 07:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"cosmic love is ruthless"

(john c lilliy)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineAmoeba665
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Ishmael]
    #477802 - 12/03/01 01:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

wow...that was a very interesting explanation. pretty difficult stuff though. basically are you saying that love is the glue that keeps the universe together as it expands by acknowledging and maintaining the connections between the separate aspects of itself?

that makes sense, assuming i understood it correctly... and then the phrase "all you need is love" would also make sense because with enough love you would be able to reconcile all things, recognize them as merely random reflections of each other, see that differences are actually just illusions created by the dissonance.

but...how does it mean that the universe was created out of love? as i understand what you said, love wouldn't exist if there wasn't anything being reflected. when all is one love is unnecessary because it is all there is. so you would need another force that causes the reflection, the expansion and the dissonance.

hmm... this is an interesting concept to explore...i wonder if you could try to clarify more?


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OfflineAmoeba665
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Amoeba665]
    #477834 - 12/03/01 01:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

perhaps then our next step should be trying to determine how we can recognize acts of love. for example, is writing a girl a poem an act of love? it seems to be an act intended to acknowledge the connections between people, so i say yes. what about buying her a gold ring? it serves, through the symbolic act of spending money, to strengthen the feeling of sameness. and you can even say that the girl is reflected in the ring, vice/versa. of course it comes down to intent. if the purpose of writing a letter or buying a ring is to manipulate the person, then it isn't love because it isn't truly serving to strengthen the connection between two people. one of those people isn't truly using the act to feel the connection. what about killing an animal to feed your starving family? killing an animal to feed yourself? is it an act of love if you recognize that you are killing and eating yourself?

this is starting to remind me a lot of the book "stranger in a strange land"... where the martians would eat their dead, and then contemplate on the characteristics of that person in order to "grok the fullness"


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Amoeba665]
    #478763 - 12/03/01 10:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

[Double-posted, read next]


Edited by Ishmael (12/03/01 10:57 PM)


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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Amoeba665]
    #478764 - 12/03/01 10:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"but...how does it mean that the universe was created out of love? "

The universe is created via the process of mind and ego /within the individual/. Accordingly to Einstien's relativity, motion cannot exist without both an observing subject and an observed object in some /relation/ to one another. A planet floating in space cannot move unless it is /in relation/ to another object - be it another planet or an observer. We can see the planet /orbit/ around a star, but if there was no star, there would be no reference for the motion to occur. Likewise, existance is much the same way. There is an old
Zen buddhist Koan that most everyone is familiar with that has the odd ability to link Einstein's relativity to psychological thought: " If a tree falls in a woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?". Compare that to Einstein's Theory of Relativity and you might come to an interesting conclusion - all reality is relative, not just the property of motion, but existance itself. Without an independent observer, physical reality could not exist. Coming from a planet teeming with life, with a multitude of independent-observer forms, we may take such an assertion for granted or perhaps even as moot. But it is really neither because when applies to the idea of love I expressed previously, it solves your question.

Each person truely creates his or her own universe out of perception...through this process of finding 'love' (as defined before: self-reflection and connection) within any and everything. Ultimate love would be the destruction of the individual 'universe' created out of mind and the realization of the true nature of all things and their relation. Western religions liken being 'in the presence' of God as that of ultimate love or ultimate bliss. Becoming one with god would completely negate all need for reflection because 'you' would truely become all things. But as long as one is contained within ego, love is the easiest medium of transcendence - finding reflection within objects and thus connection to 'divinity'.

The key to your question is found between the subject and object, a relationship that from the perspective of 'All', doesn't actually exist. And that's the key, as long as our relation to self is through a subject-object relationship, a relationship of inside and outside, of black and white dualism and of ego or mind, then love becomes our most dynamic connection to the divine - to transpersonal reference. Love shows our literal connection to things outside our 'selves'...up until the point where we make the ultimate connection by moving beyond our conception of 'self'. At that point, we loose the force of relativity which creates all 'things' and what remains is ...nothing. Being in the presence of god may be bliss and ultimate love, but actually being god is more like oblivion - the complete negation of all need to perceive for 'you' are 'all'.

Ish


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OfflineAmoeba665
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Ishmael]
    #478903 - 12/04/01 01:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

so god is all, and all is nothing. and then somehow, that nothing becomes something when the all is reduced to many, simply due to the introduction of relativity. right? and love is the act of reconnecting the pieces.

but i still don't understand completely. what causes the all to be reduced to many? some sort of desire to experience itself, to 'live' instead of just 'be'? but why, if all we are going to do is try to become one again? so that we have the experience of being separate and coming together? how did this desire come about? do you have a choice when you die to return to the all/nothing or live another experience? why didn't we just create ourselves as a race of beings who don't need to eat, who are immortal but can destroy ourselves at our whims? or is it that we can only be created out of random factors and thus we are only as developed as we've developed ouselves, and we are working up to that point? why are we not aware of our self? wouldn't it make the experience more satisfying if we knew that's what we were here for?

do you believe in karma, forced reincarnation, or other levels/forms of spiritual evolution?

well.. sorry about all these questions and me answering most of them myself with more questions.. thats a problem i have... but that's what this board is for, the analyzing of ideas... any disagreements or clarifications or whatever, please don't hesitate..


if only i was a martian..


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Amoeba665]
    #478955 - 12/04/01 01:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ever heard of Lacrymology, the study of crying? I've never read the "Joyful Guide" book, but the idea makes a lot of sense...

Ever feel like crying but your fear is so strong that it holds you back? It doesn't seem like fear, but it is... next time you experience something emotional and you feel the tears coming, open yourself to the emotion. You will get better at "being open".

Once fear is diminished, love is embraced.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Adamist]
    #478987 - 12/04/01 02:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

lol...


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Anonymous

Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Anonymous]
    #479009 - 12/04/01 03:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Love is that which binds us



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Anonymous

Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: ]
    #479020 - 12/04/01 03:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

and this is true...


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OfflineAmoeba665
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Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Adamist]
    #479355 - 12/04/01 12:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yeah i've heard of lacrymology, but i don't know much about it other than what you said. i'm not sure what i said to give you whatever impression you got, but i'm not afraid of crying. although crying only does so much, it doesn't erase any memories.. its sort of like a funeral for a loved one, it provides some sort of closure and tells you to move on, but it doesn't change anything.

i guess the thing is that i expect the truth, the perfect answer, to be perfect... it should satisfy me on all the deepest levels of my mind. but i suppose in oder to be satisfied i need to see the experience of life as a gift to be cherished afterwards instead of a struggle to be overcome.. ok i said it now i just go do it huh?

"come to me and all your answers will be questioned.."


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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Amoeba665]
    #479395 - 12/04/01 01:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

My favorite interpretation of the 'why' of life - why would god fracture itself into a multitude of pieces when all ultimate experience is is reconnecting with /god/ when it all comes down to it? - comes from a Native American philosophy: ' We exist here to experience lonliness as that is something that The Creator can never know'.

The cause of the all becoming many? Well, evolution could be a good culprit. Until the evolution of life...the cosmos would have just been a shifting of slow and fast processes - energy and matter - within a larger whole. But from the perspective of god, would this be enough? That which is all cannot concieve of being an individual (that which percieves itself 'alone' within a sea of everything). You can call evolution the natural will of god directed towards the developement of this sense of lonliness...if you're so inclined.

For is there any better way to truely understand the Universe, the All, but from MANY different perspectives, indeed an infinite number of perspectives? Before the presence of the individual within god, would there have been /any/ knowledge of /anything/? Why would there have been a need? The situation of the individual manifestation of divinity enhances all divinity through the process of being.

This is why I have always been wary of the strict damnation-hellish interpretations of life offered up by revealed civilized religions. The buddhist notion that life is merely the 'lowest state' from which we must transcend. The christian notion that this is a world corrupted by sin and we must live for the day when we gain entrance to the untainted world of Heaven. I think that the world is no more sinful or 'low' than any other existance in this universe - the concepts really mean very little from the perspective of god - indeed, life on earth can be exceedingly wonderful. Life offers a spectrum of existance that, by definition, cannot exist in other theoretical and actual 'planes'. And in the end, is one spectrum 'better' than the other? I have doubts on that. It is great to seek enlightenment when it grounds you in the actuality of the world that /is/. But I have concerns about trying to achieve an enlightenment that creates fanciful temporal spaces for you to explore - almost as if in escape or retreat from this reality.

Now...your other multitude of questions...would life be more satisfying if you knew you were connected to god from the begining? I would imagine so, indeed, this is how it is described by many tribal peoples who exist in a lifestyle completely divergent from our own 'civilized' manner. And that I believe is another effect of civilization - our cultural indoctrination process: rather than reinforcing our natural connection to our environment and ultimately god it does its best to reinforce the sense of seperation.

All creation rests within every thing: from a grain of sand, to man, to the sun. Look close enough or far enough away and you come to see the universe in a crumb of bread or morsel of cheese. All within all. Infinity. A snake eating its own tail. And to stand in the middle of Infinity, able to see all in both directions - far and near - that is the experience of being alive. Our mental congestion of self and ego largely precludes any sight, narrowing our vision down upon the culturally deemed 'essentials' and leaving us empty and vacant. Love is the ability to connect with that which has been 'locked' outside of our notion of 'self' by mind. Finding connection with all things is the way by which we ultimately connect with what we really are - humans, alive and living.

Ish


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Anonymous

Re: Love, a universal force. [Re: Amoeba665]
    #479739 - 12/04/01 06:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

That lacrymology bit was something that Tool made up back in the day, you can read about it in the faq at toolshed.down.net...


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