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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4630832 -

Jesus, this thread is growing faster than my cannabis plants  :grin:


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4630854 -

I agree that guilt is a mental concept, whereas shame is an emotion. The feeling of shame in my body is a leaden weight in my stomach, pressure on my chest, and tears behind my eyes. When I go into this emotion, there is a depth of sadness behind it that staggers me.

Thank you for the wise counsel.

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4630865 -

:bigjoint: :popcorn:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630888 -

Hehehe  :rotfl:


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4630905 -

Veritas, do you ever get to the bottom of this emotion? What do you feel could be there? I was also perplexed with feelings of profound sadness daily, until I took some mushrooms, dove into it and cried 3 hours straight. The sadness is "gone" now.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #4630928 -

I had the same experience on mushrooms many years ago. Perhaps it is time again.

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4631045 -

I found that once I had learned to forgive myself that other people lost their hold on me. Those that would seek to use my past misdeeds as a weapon to toss in my face were dumbfounded for a short while. They found that their buttons no longer worked because I had released the past. I was not that person anymore who could be so easily manipulated by guilt or shame due to ties with my history. These were not evil people, but my familly and friends. Some became accusatory in a very deep way at this point making me aware of all of the things I had done to the detriment of others and they became really upset when I just smiled and said that I had forgiven myself, and that I had forgiven all others and there was no more that I could do. The past is gone. I no longer responded with shame or drama. I think that this was what Carlos Castaneda meant when he discussed losing personal history and becoming unavaillable...self acceptance and forgiveness.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4631053 -

Very good, very powerfull. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Icelander]
    #4631126 -

How do you interpret those two concepts...availability and personal history? I am curious if we see different things there.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4631271 -

Haven't read the responses, so FORGIVE if this has been said already:

Why is it that the hardest person for me to forgive is myself?

After all, I have an insider's POV on all the reasons why I make mistakes, so I can understand the "why" in a unique way.

Plus, I am the only person I absolutely have to live with. If you have a life-long roommate, you need to be able to forgive them or be willing to live in a tense household.

Even those who have hurt me more deeply than I thought possible are a thousand times easier to forgive than myself.


Perhaps the reason why it seems harder to forgive yourself than others, is because you hold yourself to a higher [perhaps even unpractical or unrealistic] standard than you do to others.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4631368 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
How do you interpret those two concepts...availability and personal history? I am curious if we see different things there.


Same as your post Hue. You have taken yourself out of a trafficed way. No one can take a poke at you :grin: No personal history, no past. You have accomplished something of real significance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4631458 -

Quote:
Is this due to ingrained guilt? Perfectionism? Ego? Need for approval? All of the above?



For me it's perfectionism and the associated fear of failure and guilt of imperfect results. Sometimes I relax and enjoy the ride and am not hard on myself, but not often enough.

Self forgiveness for me is a matter of learning to accept and love myself more as I am in spite of my flaws. This also applies to other people as I tend to apply my perfectionism to them as well.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Icelander]
    #4631930 -

I took the whole point of Journey to Ixtlan to revolve around these ideas of personal history and availability. All other teachings in the book seemed to fascilitate these ideas and expand on them. In the end Don Genaro says he can no longer go back to Ixtlan because he let go of his past. He told a dramatic story to illustrate it, but he was describing the loss of personal history.

I have only rarely directly asked what other people well versed in this lore have thought because I don't want to appear to take it at face value as many attempt to do. I am interested to see that you had a similar take. Most people I have discussed this with remember the far out stories told and not the point of those stories. They become wrapped up in supporting it or refuting it while making no attempt to understand it. Often I hate to discuss it here because it becomes a contest of true-false instead of "what did it mean" which is the true essence of philosophy.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4632003 -

Agreed, I would be happy to discuss any parts of the books in PM. After reading them over 20 times (the first four) I still have much to glean from them. They are more alive to me at this moment then they were 30 years ago.

I don't think for a minute that these concepts/principles cannot be applied to my daily life without great benefit. In fact without them I would be adrift for somewhere to go. They become more valuable to me as I move in this dreamlike existence. What else is there besides the warriors way as clumsy as I may follow it? Television and politics? :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4632021 -

Quote:
I took the whole point of Journey to Ixtlan to revolve around these ideas of personal history and availability.


In spite of me giving Iceman a hard time about Castaneda, Carlos did write some good stuff and Journey to Ixtlan IMO was the peak of his books. I just wish he had labeled them fiction.

I agree that losing personal history and not making oneself available were central to the book.

How can you effectively erase the past from your mind when the most important part was at ages 0-3 and you likely can't remember any of what happened? Guaranteed it was important and a huge part of who you are today though.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Icelander]
    #4633291 -

Icelander said:
:bigjoint: :popcorn:


:lol:

That is exactly the summation of my experience right now - reading the Shroomery, all baked, eating popcorn. :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4633917 -

Hmmm...strange concept .. 'to forgive oneself'...
For what should I say sorry to me, if I did everything out of a good reason ?
Should'nt I not try to get my forgiveness from someone else, I propably did hurt ?
And this one, will only forgive me, if I won't do this harm not again to him. So, do I know I won't do it for that reason ?
What are the reasons I should do it again, or not ? Who is the judge ?

In bible, they say, that g*d will forgive oneself at that moment, when you don't do that 'sin' again...
Quite logical, but almost impossible for humans.

Sorry, I am out of sync somehow...more questions than answers :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: Veritas]
    #4634232 -

Veritas said:
Why is it that the hardest person for me to forgive is myself?

After all, I have an insider's POV on all the reasons why I make mistakes, so I can understand the "why" in a unique way.

Plus, I am the only person I absolutely have to live with.  If you have a life-long roommate, you need to be able to forgive them or be willing to live in a tense household.

Even those who have hurt me more deeply than I thought possible are a thousand times easier to forgive than myself.

Is this due to ingrained guilt? Perfectionism? Ego? Need for approval?  All of the above?

:confused:


I can relate with you Veritas. In the past I had a lot forgiving to do...and it was to myself. I think it gets better with the practice  :smile:. Need for approval can be a can bring a lot of tension. I think all things that demand and therefore you expect, can bring out doubt. But with real faith in Oneness all can become true. Hence One possibility. One who has faith in God (and by that i mean absolute faith!) does all he truly can to achive it, thus limiting the infinite possibilities to One. But the two way street can always tempt us and multiply.

I think pretty much you nailed the point though.

EDIT: Those who think faith cannot manifest do not comprehend the power of the mind.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (09/08/05 05:02 PM)

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: dorkus]
    #4637116 -

i think people including myself tend to have all sorts of "unusual" or different thoughts all the time. a person can't help what they think in many instances. it's okay to think what you think. it's a person's choice whether to act on their thoughts or not.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Self-Forgiveness [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4637595 -

crunchytoast said:
it's a person's choice whether to act on their thoughts or not.


It is just as much a person's "choice" whether they are going to act in a certain manner or not as it is a person's "choice" which thoughts they are to think.

An inability to consciously direct thoughts is a result of an undisciplined mind, the amount or kinds of thoughts they have direction over evidence of what degree the mind is disciplined. If a mind will constantly run thought processes that the conscious mind cannot interrupt or change, then it is just as possible that they are also taking action without choice.

"You can't help what you think and you have no control over your thoughts, but even though it is your thought processes that shapes and creates the mechanism that initiates external action and the 'choices' it makes and the possibillities it considers and to what degree, 'you' have absolute control over your actions." :wtf:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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