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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4552626 -

On the topic BTK I mean. I do criticize Christianity and other religions; I'm not denying that. But I assume he was talking about Rader.

And I don't justify his actions. Where did you see that?

I don't really "support" his actions with Darwinism anymore than I support a wolf slaughtering and eating a cute, cuddly little lamb; I simply realize that's the way it is and that there's no need for justification. Might makes right, and if people can do it, somebody eventually will do it. The issue is to try to understand and learn from them, not to call them monsters.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4552674 -

Markos said the Rader reffered to himself as a Monster. So far, the only who called Rader a monster was Rader himself.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4552682 -

Possibly, but that doesn't detract from my point. Just because people don't use one term much, you can see the way they think about it in their conversations, posts and reactions.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4552709 -

Quote:
These religions you listed are delusional and have caused millions of times more torture, more killings and damage than Dennis Rader could've hoped for in his wildest dreams. Christianity is more evil than any mass murderer to set foot on this planet.


Heres a point I couldn't agree with more. Except to say it's the followers of those religions who are more evil, not the religions themselves. The reliqions themselves are just kind of weird and confused.. :mushroom2:

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
Carl G. Jung  :thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (08/18/05 08:18 PM)

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4552849 -

Intended as reply to Ravus:
"I don't really "support" his actions with Darwinism anymore than I support a wolf slaughtering and eating a cute, cuddly little lamb; I simply realize that's the way it is and that there's no need for justification. Might makes right, and if people can do it, somebody eventually will do it. The issue is to try to understand and learn from them, not to call them monsters."

There is no comparison between a wolf eating a lamb as an act of survival and a man killing 10 people to satisfy his sexual based fantasies. The former is nature at work, and part of the order of our ecosystem...the latter is a product of our current system and society, and it is an artificial situation created in the mind of man. The "Natural Born Killers" philosophy does not hold up. In nature predators kill for their survival. They do not kill that which they will not consume. They take only what is needed to live. Man is the only animal that kills for pleasure alone. This tendancy is created by our ability to reason and view the world objectively. Earlier in the thread you promoted a return to nature for man, but that course is divergent with nature...not in harmony with it. In taking only what is needed for survival nature acknowledges the sacredness and sanctity of life. Man often ignores this sanctity.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (08/18/05 08:45 PM)

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4552857 -

It is God's place to judge, not yours. No doubt Dennis Rader's actions will be judged to have been wrong in the strongest sense but it is neither yours nor anyone else's (aside from the judge in his case) place or right to condemn him. Your opinion of him is valid but your hubris is not. Christ himself had compassion and love for the all people, Paul himself was a murderer and persecuter of christians yet through Christ he was redeemed. your laughable "moral superiority" is anything but.


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http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4552876 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Man is the only animal that kills for pleasure alone.


actually Hue, many other animals can be observed to kill for pleasure. ever seen a cat toy with a mouse and not eat it? dolphins and orca whales have been observed toying with seals, killing them and then leaving their bodies for scavengers. it seems creulty is a natural state for many creatures. the only difference is that man places a moral judgement on such actions.


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http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4552931 -

In the majority of cases animals only kill for food because killing takes a lot of energy. In Darwinism, the animal that survives expending as little energy as possible will have an advantage over an animal that survives wasting a lot of energy, so over time they evolve only to do what is necessary.

But this doesn't make killing for non-food purposes or even pleasure unnatural, nor is it an "artificial situation". It simply can't be done with most animals because they've learned not to waste energy; in homo sapiens, that's not a problem. We have food everywhere, and killing might only take as much energy as pressing a trigger. But we are still evolving animals, following the potential nature has given us.

Quote:
Earlier in the thread you promoted a return to nature for man, but that course is divergent with nature...not in harmony with it.


In my opinion, there's no such as either. Everything is natural; if you diverge from what your natural stance is, you die. If you survive, then you are in harmony with nature. Of course, death is in harmony with nature also; diverging from your normal path is only natural. It's just that usually, it's taken care of quickly.

Quote:
In taking only what is needed for survival nature acknowledges the sacredness and sanctity of life


You think that's why the wolf does it? More likely, the wolf is following Darwinism and has learned that wasting energy is detrimental to his survival.

Nothing is sacred outside of the human mind. As if bacteria or viruses care for the "sanctity of life"? What sanctity of life? We're made of the same molecules as everything else; we get no special treatment simply because we're living. Tell a massive meteor crashing into the earth that it's not respecting the sanctity of life and see what it says.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: psychomime]
    #4552938 -

Ya beat me to it. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4553211 -

"You think that's why the wolf does it? More likely, the wolf is following Darwinism and has learned that wasting energy is detrimental to his survival."

In my world the wolf is following "The Way". The wolf, due to it's limited higher functions, has no choice but to follow the way of nature. Man has objectivity which at least gives the illusion of free will if not free will itself. Man is the only animal with a choice...AND a moral obligation. Both of these are the responsibilities that we incurred when we were gifted with our higher functions. Our philosophiea are divergent as you believe that morals and the sanctity of life are creations of our imagination, I tend to believe that they are inherant in nature. I agree animal behaviors are explainable by science, but that does not negate the spiritual property, it is just defining the laws of that property.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553219 -

there's just one thing, we are not lions, we are monkeys, they mostly sit around in the jungle watching TV all day, and rarely kill


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4553220 -

Icelander said:
Quote:
These religions you listed are delusional and have caused millions of times more torture, more killings and damage than Dennis Rader could've hoped for in his wildest dreams. Christianity is more evil than any mass murderer to set foot on this planet.


Heres a point I couldn't agree with more. Except to say it's the followers of those religions who are more evil, not the religions themselves. The reliqions themselves are just kind of weird and confused.. :mushroom2:

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
Carl G. Jung  :thumbup:



I doubt anyone here completely understands the metaphysicas of Jung (see BCC 1960 int.). That last part of Jung's statement covers the extensive works and theories he conjugated about religious experience (gnosis) etc. He was relating the ideas of religion to religious experience, where most people here would probably interpret that as a disengagement from all religious thought, even a simple faith stance derived from a particular religion.


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: psychomime]
    #4553231 -

The cat does not "toy" with the mouse. I am very familiar with the habits of cats. Cats will use the mice to hone their hunting skills when food is not needed. This is NOT play, but practice. I have seen my cat practice hunting with a hairy toy spider...placing it in different locations and then stalking it. It is also well known that cats that are separated from their mother too early are never taught to make the kill by biting the neck...so they appear to toy with it when in fact they want to kill and eat it. The hunt is instinct...the kill is learned from the mother cat. These are facts that can be easily found by reading about cats. I am not familiar with the habits of the Killer Whale, but I suspect more is going on there than pleasure in killing.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (08/18/05 10:07 PM)

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4553341 -

Maybe likewise the serial killer thinks he's killing for pleasure, but in all actuality is just honing his skills for when he needs to hunt again?

Perhaps serial killers are just following left-over archaic instinct from before humans learned to raise docile animals for food. And when he needs the practice of the best game, he turns also to the smartest prey. After all, there are reports that many serial killers killed and tortured animals as children, so this would be a logical line of thinking if following instinct.

It's odd that you almost automatically think there's some deeper nature to the actions of cats and dolphins, but not to humans? Perhaps this is just natural behavior too; perhaps humans are simply following instinct and were never taught by the father how to discern which animals to kill and which not to kill.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553348 -

You keep mentioning the madhouse. Methinks you'll join Nietzsche there one day. Survival does not define humanity. All organisms have that in common. Compassion defines essential humanity.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4553352 -

some animals can show compassion too, even toward humans, it's just that it's 100% instinctive to them, but maybe it is instinctive to us too


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4553357 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
You keep mentioning the madhouse. Methinks you'll join Nietzsche there one day. Survival does not define humanity. All organisms have that in common. Compassion defines essential humanity.


I disagree. The basic nature of all life is survival; humans have not transcended that. Compassion is only useful if it helps our survival, which it does in the correct situations. Used as an all-encompassing lifestyle though, I believe it would be detrimental to the survival of the human species.

All emotions and mindsets have their place. Hatred, love, contempt, compassion, jealousy, all were developed by Darwinism for a reason. I think it skewers the point of emotions to give one or two emotions like love and compassion such dominance over all the other essential ones.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: psychomime]
    #4553376 -

Then you are a Paulist more than a Christian. In this evaluation we, all of us, assume the responsibility to know what Christ knows and to voice that truth. Do not tell me of God's forgiveness of Saul/Paul since that evaluation comes from reading of the scriptures that Constantine and his henchmen have you filled with even today. Use some God-given sense for crying out loud instead of trying to come from a canonical sense of self-righteousness. Do you agree with a praiser of a serial killer? I am not in the position to bless or curse. My evaluation is of degrees of human morality. My evaluation has NO metaphysical influence on anyone but myself and YOU are just parroting the same old canonical stuff. Try expanding your search to some other writings besides the limited ones you've allowed yourself to be exclusively programmed with. It's called "Discriminating Wisdom" and differs radically from programming that you take for faith.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/19/05 07:53 AM)

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553382 -

"It's odd that you almost automatically think there's some deeper nature to the actions of cats and dolphins, but not to humans?"

No...I said that humans have a choice while animals do not. We have the instinct, but we have the power of reason in addition. Animals follow the way instinctively because they lack the reasoning ability to do otherwise. Do animals have compassion as Oldwood suggested? Some domestic animals seem to, but this is most likely learned behavior from contact with humans day in and day out. I think that compassion is probably too abstract a concept for our animal brothers to grasp.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4553383 -

It is only natural to stick with those emotions that feel pleasant and prefer them over those that are unpleasant or destructive to the psyche.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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