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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4538609 - 08/15/05 03:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Many serial killers were raised in mostly normal homes,-
_______________________________________________________

This is the big unknown Ravus, If it was emotional neglect in those first few years, abandonment and lack of nuturing touch and emotional contact, it could well look like your average "normal" home.

I do not just put these people away without thought because there are some of these traits in me, to a lesser degree. These are human beings after all. Something happened to set them on a path and it is worth understanding. I want to understand myself and so will look into that mirror and find out to the best of my ability what this means to me. I have more to say on this later.But it's back to work. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4538610 - 08/15/05 03:31 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

This enlightenment you talk of could be that they can feel something finally and so call that enlightenment. Or, they finally accept the way they are and quit trying to feel love or normal ways of feeling. They give in totally to their need for power and domination, they no longer fight it, and this is their form of enlightenment.




I thought this part was interesting.

Why do serial killers kill? For some of them, they speak of it like an addiction, and the people hunting them down admit that the serial killers will usually not stop on their own. Paradoxically, the serial killers will often leave hints or taunt the cops in hopes of getting caught, though for others who have no remorse this is not the case.

Perhaps serial killers have had a blank mindset their entire life. They've been shrouded in a numbness and withdrawn into a little black shell, wondering what the powerful emotions and sense of loyalty others feel is like. So they look for powerful emotions of their own, and some of them stumble upon killing other human beings.

Many serial killers were raised in mostly normal homes, so some serial killers do have a sense of society's views on right and wrong, and this is precisely what creates the powerful emotion. They may have long ago retreated from society's normal thoughts and emotions, but the sense of right and wrong has been ingrained to them since they were infants. By violating this sense and not only killing other human beings, but actually enjoying it, they could suddenly feel a burst of powerful emotion, of power and domination and meaning that they had not felt in recent memory. A light shines on their eyes, and not only does it feel truely good to dominate someone like that, but it resurrects the old human being inside of them.

And while some of them may on the surface feel good about it, the ones who leave hints and try to get caught are the ones who are not the true sociopaths. Remorse moves under the surface in them, along with a complete well of untouched emotions that they have not faced.

I liked your post because you actually thought about it rather than calling them a "sociopath" or "insane", as if labels would get rid of their human experience.




a genetic defect in a womb?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4539993 - 08/15/05 08:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Possible, yet not most from the psychlogical profiles according to my friend,who did some research.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4540014 - 08/15/05 08:57 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

From the DSM IV (4th Edition of the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of the American Psychological Association):

Antisocial Personality Disorder
There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 18 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.

Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.

Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
reckless disregard for safety of self or others.

Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

The individual is at least 18 years old (under 18 see Conduct Disorder ). There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years and the occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode

Cause:
The cause of this disorder is unknown, but biological or genetic factors may play a role. The incidence of antisocial personality is higher in people who have an antisocial biological parents. Although the diagnosis is limited to those over 18 years of age, there is usually a history of similar behaviors before age 15, such as repetitive lying, truancy, delinquency, and substance abuse. This disorder tends to occur more often in men and in people whose predominant role model had antisocial features.

Twin studies have confirmed the hereditability of antisocial behaviour in adults and shown that genetic factors are more important in adults than in antisocial children or adolescents where shared environmental factors are more important. (Lyons et a11995)

Cadoret et al (1995) studied the family environment as well as the parentage of adoptees separated at birth from parents. Antisocial Personality Disorder in the biological parents predicted antisocial disorder in the adopted away children. However, adverse factors in the adoptive environment (for example, "marital problems or substance abuse) independently predicted adult antisocial behaviours.

Treatment:

Counseling and Psychotherapy [ See Therapy Section ]:

Effective treatment of antisocial behavior and personality is limited. Group psychotherapy can be helpful. If the person can develop a sense of trust, individual psychotherapy or cognitive behavioral therapy can also be beneficial. There is no research that supports the use of medications for direct treatment of antisocial personality disorder, though.

Effective psychotherapy treatment for this disorder is limited. It is likely, though, that intensive, psychoanalytic approaches are inappropriate for this population. Approaches the reinforce appropriate behaviors and attempting to make connections between the person's actions and their feelings may be more beneficial. Emotions are usually a key aspect of treatment of this disorder. Patients often have had little or no significant emotionally-rewarding relationships in their lives. The therapeutic relationship, therefore, can be one of the first ones. This can be very scary for the client, initially, and it may become intolerable. A close therapeutic relationship can only occur when a good and solid rapport has been established with the client and he or she can trust the therapist implicitly.

Pharmacotherapy [ See Psychopharmacology Section ] :

Medications should only be utilized to treat clear, acute and serious Axis I concurrent diagnoses. No research has suggested that any medication is effective in the treatment of this disorder.

Self-Help [ See Self-Hep Section ]

Self-help methods for the treatment of this disorder are often overlooked by the medical profession because very few professionals are involved in them. Groups can be especially helpful for people with this disorder, if they are tailored specifically for antisocial personality disorder. Individuals with this disorder typically feel more at ease in discussing their feelings and behaviors in front of their peers in this type of supportive modality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4540035 - 08/15/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yet the vast majority of people with this disorder don't end up becoming serial killers, and not all serial killers could be said to have antisocial personality disorder.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4540044 - 08/15/05 09:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

How would it occur to such a person to seek treatment? Their ego is so totally dominated by such a disorder that it seems unlikely that they would percieve that they were ill.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4540059 - 08/15/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

True :thumbup: of your first statement. I'll have to research the second.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4540066 - 08/15/05 09:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

True. And that's also true of many people out in our normal world. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4540079 - 08/15/05 09:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Herbert Mullin, for example, would not be classified as a sociopath to my knowledge.

Many of them obviously would, but some of them have really weird biographies in how normal their life was. The above serial killer, Mullin, was voted most likely to succeed by his classmates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Mullin

In examples like these though, it often seems to be a mental disorder far more delusional than antisocial personality disorder.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4540108 - 08/15/05 09:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"Herbert Mullin, for example, would not be classified as a sociopath to my knowledge."

No, he sounded like a perfect example of a violent paranoid schizophrenic. He heard voices and killed people out of the notion that they were persecuting him.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4540117 - 08/15/05 09:15 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting, us humans. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4540132 - 08/15/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Herbert Mullin, for example, would not be classified as a sociopath to my knowledge."

No, he sounded like a perfect example of a violent paranoid schizophrenic. He heard voices and killed people out of the notion that they were persecuting him.




That's human nature for you.

Maybe modern society distorts the fight or flight behavior we experienced in nature into something extended and illogical for the circumstances.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4540143 - 08/15/05 09:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I tend to think that the individual accomplishes this task all on their own.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4543691 - 08/16/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I recommend therapy for you even if you are merely attempting to raise the hairs on readers' necks. If you are baiting readers by trying to appear sociopathic yourself, you are immediately suspect as a complete poseur. I for one do not believe that you actually admire such an individual for heinous cruelty, but I DO believe that you are extremely confused about the actual meanings of words like 'transcendence' (your reference has nothing whatsoever to do with transcendence), and if your use of the word "balls" implies courage, then you simply have no clue about the lack of empathy and absence of anxiety that characterize the sociopath, and you are confusing a profound deficiency of human affect with a human virtue. Now THAT really needs to be addressed for everyone's sake.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Icelander]
    #4543771 - 08/16/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

oh shit. i've got all those features of antisocial whatzit disorder! also i would like to know what it is like to kill another human being. Ravus, maybe we can get a two for one special on therapy? or on second thought, perhaps we can help each other out...

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4543782 - 08/16/05 08:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'll skip the ad hominem attacks since you seem to be keen on those with everybody.

Quote:

'transcendence' (your reference has nothing whatsoever to do with transcendence),




To transcend means to pass beyond the limits of, to surpass in intensity or power, etc. Transcendental means to be beyond common thought or experience. I don't know what your definition of transcendance is, but in my opinion Dennis Rader and all the other serial killers surpass the bounds of at least your system of thought, and one could say surpass the intensity and power of most regular humans, by leaps and bounds. Enlightenment is not just the in the images of drunk starved Indians or delusional Galilean peasants, after all. They are others out there who have also transcended the normal thought experience to have a reality you'll never understand.

Watching another human being die at your hands, knowing that their life is under your complete control- is this not beyond the experience of the vast majority of human beings? It's a return to nature, a return to the wilderness that most human beings long ago shunned as "evil".

Quote:

and if your use of the word "balls" implies courage, then you simply have no clue about the lack of empathy and absence of anxiety that characterize the sociopath




It's easy to label people and then assume their entire existence on this label, eh? Killing people regardless takes a certain sort of fearlessness most people will only come close to understanding in times of extreme desperation.

Quote:

and you are confusing a profound deficiency of human affect with a human virtue.




I don't think they have any sort of deficiency, they're just different. After all, the difference between what you call a virtue and a deficiency is entirely subjective; personally, I've always thought of Jesus and all the other prophets as having mass deficiencies in logic. :shrug:

You assume too much is absolute, when everything is subjective. Your well-calculated sense of moral outrage and staged concern are useful for the survival of society to an extent, but lose all meaning in philosophy that goes deeper than society's Darwinism. Or does it? Perhaps nothing can go deeper than that, my opinions included. What do you think Markos?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: psychomime]
    #4543799 - 08/16/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psychomime said:
oh shit. i've got all those features of antisocial whatzit disorder! also i would like to know what it is like to kill another human being. Ravus, maybe we can get a two for one special on therapy? or on second thought, perhaps we can help each other out...




I guess the thought that serial killers aren't evil and insane makes anyone in serious need of counseling. Markos reminds me of a Nietzsche quote I once read:

The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small. His race is as ineradicable as the flea; the last man lives longest.

"We have invented happiness," says the last men, and they blink. They have left the regions where it was hard to live, for one needs warmth. One still loves one's neighbor and rubs against him, for one needs warmth...

One still works, for work is a form of entertainment. But one is careful lest the entertainment be too harrowing. One no longer becomes poor or rich: both require too much exertion. Who still wants to rule? Who obey? Both require too much exertion.

No shepherd and one herd! Everybody wants the same, everybody is the same: whoever feels different goes voluntarily into a madhouse.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4543826 - 08/16/05 08:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

er... so was that a yes to my last proposition? i'll bring the machete and you bring the latex gloves. :psycho:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: Ravus]
    #4543867 - 08/16/05 08:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"Killing people regardless takes a certain sort of fearlessness most people will only come close to understanding in times of extreme desperation."

I have to say that this statement is blatant nonsense. Rader did not kill adult armed males, but primarliy females that he happened to dwarf in size and strength. This takes little fearlessness. I am a large man. I could easily snap the neck of any normal female or small man with little trouble. This takes no fearlessness, especially against unarmed victims who have been tricked into thinking that you will not kill them. He tied several of thenm up before doing the deed. If I were so inclined to take human life (which is sacred) in this fashion the only fear I would have is of being caught in the act.

"It's a return to nature, a return to the wilderness that most human beings long ago shunned as "evil"

Engaging in such activity is also not exactly being a "noble savage" who has returned to a primal state of being. It is merely the pathetic power trip of a small minded person who has no real way to exert power in their day to day life....not a monster all big and bad, but a pathetic bully who will not take on his equal in size or strength. In the world of the "savage" his life would have been snuffed quickly without ceremony.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Dennis Rader [Re: psychomime]
    #4543878 - 08/16/05 08:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

:strokebeard:

I see you live in New Zealand, and I live in the States, so we can cut the difference and meet up in Madagascar...

I hear they have flimsy enforcement there anyway. No order at all. :nonono:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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