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InvisibleLenore
enthusiast
Registered: 01/31/00
Posts: 366
Lockheed Martin win Contract!
    #438609 - 10/27/01 04:58 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Are we not the most violent and warlike nation in existance?


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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: Lenore]
    #438623 - 10/27/01 05:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, I'd say any country that's been at war for years and years(check out what was going on in Afghanistan before we got there or look at huge parts of Africa or Isreal(which I somehow forgot when I first posted it)) is far more violent and warlike.


--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Edited by MokshaMan (10/27/01 06:01 PM)


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InvisibleLenore
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Registered: 01/31/00
Posts: 366
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: MokshaMan]
    #438957 - 10/28/01 01:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

you cannot see the absolute absrudity and irony?


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: Lenore]
    #439226 - 10/28/01 01:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think the figure was 200 billion dollars right? I'm sure all the people going out of business in manhattan would like to know why they aren't getting any help, while lockheed martin is getting 200 billion dollars to build fighter jets to help kill a country with no ability to shoot down the fighter jets we have now anyways.


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: MrKurtz]
    #440142 - 10/29/01 04:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

>> you cannot see the absolute absrudity and irony?

No I can not see the absurdity or irony in the horrors that these nations have had inflicted upon them and have themselves inflicted. Let's look at each one individually. Afghanistan is a country that was invaded by the Soviets. It was absolutely ravaged and if not for the assistance of the US most likely would have fallen into the hands of the USSR. The US was making a strategic move trying to reassure that the Communist didn't continue to spread throughout the world. Once the Soviets left, the US left as well with the assumption that a people that could defend themselves could create a government for themselves. Should the US have stuck around to help rebuild the damage inflicted by the USSR? Probably, but you can't place the blame on the US for what the Communists did. Africa is a nation that was raped by the European nations and is still suffering from colonialism(not to mention an epidemic). What this has to do with the US, I'm not sure. Many of these tribes that have been forced to exist under a certain ruler do not like each other, this tribalism is the cause of some of the violence. I would however argue that most of the damaged was caused by Europeans. The US did support the slave trade, but this was something started by the Europeans; both should be "blamed" for this atroscity. Israel... well Israel is a different story. One of the things claimed in Mein Kampf(Hitler) is that the gypsies and Jews were evil because they were people without a culture. As we all know the gypsies and Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis. A way to remedy this after the war was to give the Jews their own country. Not only would it allow for the Jews to have a culture(or at least not be accused of lacking one) and a way for the Jews to have a sense of protection since it was their state. Now, England gave land that they "owned" to the formation of Israel. Since this was already inhabitated land, well you can see what that leads to. Did the US supply them weapons, yes they did. Is the US Israel's keeper, no it is not. Israel and the surrounding Arab nations have both been agressive towards the others, I will admit that Israel in recent years has by far been the more agressive party. Of course had the US not given them the weapons that they have, Israel would have most likely been wiped out and you'd have another slaughter of the Jews comparable to that of Nazi Germany. And if you hadn't noticed the US has been condemning them for what they've been doing recently.

>> to help kill a country with no ability to shoot down the fighter jets we have now anyways

If you think we have no other enemies than the ones in Afghanistan, you're being foolish. This is also good for the general economy and without this most likely Lockheed Martin would have gone under and many more people would be without jobs or are the only people that matter those in NYC? BTW I hope that the current conflict is finished by 2005 since that's when they're expected to start being produced(much less used). And the dollar amount based on several web sites is expected to closer to 400 billion(1/2 that from the US, 1/2 from allies of the US).


--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Edited by MokshaMan (10/29/01 04:02 AM)


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InvisibleLenore
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Registered: 01/31/00
Posts: 366
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: MokshaMan]
    #440554 - 10/29/01 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

your missing the point, and in your responce you exhibit most excellently the violence of our nation.

As an economic booster?, well I shouldn't even have to get into this, but if our society needs to build thousands of warplanes, a giant satellite missle shield, and all else that comes with war, well doesn't that simply illustrate how dependent we are upon the proliferation of violence and war? Don't kid yourself, Place like Israel, South Asia, Africa, Latin America, and SE Asia may seem more violent on the nightly news, but the US govt. has consistantly played the part of Agressor, and instigator. A Nation that funnels billions of dollars a year into other countries with the sole purpose of creating violence and instability, How is this a benevolent "Peaceful People" as our current president describes us?

Like Children
Rapture in front of the tubes
strong men stand up and tell us
who's who
the enemy half a world away
like children
watching the blinking lights of a video game
pixels painting a truck
and its gone under a bomb
god bless CNN for the war they give us
every night


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InvisibleMokshaMan
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 280
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: Lenore]
    #440826 - 10/29/01 05:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

>> you exhibit most excellently the violence of our nation

Where? The places and things I was talking about generally were violence that was started by someone else. Just because the US has assisted Israel(a sovereign government) and the Mujahadeen(sp?, a group protecting a sovereign nation from invasion) does not mean that we have been the agressor in either.

If you are claiming that the US is the root and cause of all violence(which appears to me to be the position you're taking) then I'd say you're a fool. Violence was occuring before the US and will be continueing to occur after the US no longer exists. There are cases where I will agree with you, Columbia for instance although I'm quite sure the government of Columbia invited our military in. To generally say that US is violent also seems to indicate that we're being violent in the US, this would be a false statement in my opinion since we haven't had a war since the 1800s(there have been isolated examples but nothing that compares to war).

>> A Nation that funnels billions of dollars a year into other countries with the sole purpose of creating violence and instability, How is this a benevolent "Peaceful People" as our current president describes us?

Which countries are we trying to create instability in? The US is interested in making money, like everyone else in the world. Instability does not help anyone make money. We're a "peaceful people" because we have not fought a war amongst ourselves since the civil war. And have not technically started a war since the revolution.


--------------------
Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Edited by MokshaMan (10/29/01 05:10 PM)


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OfflineMrKurtz
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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Lockheed Martin win Contract! [Re: MokshaMan]
    #440883 - 10/29/01 06:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Although America is never really the direct cause of any atrocities in the world, America does a good job of helping them blossom. I often hear about how America is not at fault for happenings in Cambodia, Afghanistan, Israel, and so on because we only gave them money, we didn't tell them what to do. But, after at least 40 years of corrupting foreign governments with money... you would think we would catch on. Maybe aggressor isn't the right word, ignorance is more fitting. And I think you would agree there is alot of ignorance going around on the current situation?


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