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Offlinenmukh1
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500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?!
    #4339748 - 06/26/05 07:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Aloha,
I'm wondering if anyone can figure this out.  I performed an acid base extraction on 1 kg San Pedro.  I ground up the cactus in a blender, put it in a bucket with a lye/water solution and added a top layer of naptha.  Let it sit for two days, extracted top naptha layer and added 3 mL of HCl (muriatic acid) in a cup of water and placed it into a separatory funnel.  After separating the acified layer with the alkaloids, I let it sit.  I think this is where I might have messed up.  Being impatient, I decided to boil the water off.  There was a green slimy liquid remaining and I boiled that off as well.  There remained a brown chocolate layer which I further heated and then scraped off and ate 500 mg to no effect!!!  :confused: Can someone diagnose what's going on?? 
Much gratitude in advance


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InvisibleCaptainH13
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: nmukh1]
    #4340668 - 06/26/05 11:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

wow,man..i don't think i've ever seen pure Mescaline Hydrochloride in my entire life.....

sorry i don't have any help,but you got my support!...


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Offlinestarkes
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: nmukh1]
    #4340839 - 06/27/05 12:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I know a guy who did something like 10 times the amount of mescaline that all his other friends did, in the same room, from the same batch, and he didnt feel a thing. He cant get high off the stuff. That probably doesnt help but who knows.


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Offlineshrooma
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: starkes]
    #4341324 - 06/27/05 03:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i dont know much about mescaline at all but perhaps when you boiled it the mescaline may have degraded?


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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: shrooma]
    #4342358 - 06/27/05 11:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shrooma said:
i dont know much about mescaline at all but perhaps when you boiled it the mescaline may have degraded?




Possibly. But according to MJ, people in south america boil the cactus for 24 hours sometimes.

It also wasn't anywhere near 100% mescaline. You extracted all the alkaloids. How much of that is mesc? Well, it differs greatly from cactus to cactus. I've read of one study that found 0% mescaline in some peruvian torch cacti. I'll try to find the link. Another study found a very high amount of the alkaloids to be tyramine.

Could've been preparation, personal tolerance to mescaline, or (most likely, i think) weak cacti.


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Offlinelonebuddha
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: nmukh1]
    #4342484 - 06/27/05 12:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shrooma said:

It also wasn't anywhere near 100% mescaline. You extracted all the alkaloids. How much of that is mesc? Well, it differs greatly from cactus to cactus. I've read of one study that found 0% mescaline in some peruvian torch cacti. I'll try to find the link. Another study found a very high amount of the alkaloids to be tyramine.





What he said. Also I never heard about using a base to extract the mescaline. I'm no chemist so don't quote me on this but the mescaline would be freebase and possibly not very soluble in a basic water solution. Also you did not check the ph of the water with the acid solution. Its possible that the 3 ml of acid did not react with all of the mescaline. This would be the case if the ph adjusted to 7 after letting the acid naphtha solution sit.

Well that's my input of what else could have gone wrong. I would say up the dose and see what happens. If you still have the cactus muck, maybe consider another extraction using a different method. Best of luck.


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: lonebuddha]
    #4342538 - 06/27/05 12:41 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I ground up the cactus in a blender, put it in a bucket with a lye/water solution and added a top layer of naptha




first mistake, you missed the defatting stage. you have to defat if your working with a substance that contains chlorophyll.

Quote:

Let it sit for two days




shaking and swirling is how you mix the two. letting them settle wont do shit.

Quote:

3 mL of HCl in a cup of water




way the fuck too much. 1 drop of muriatic acid will change a gallon of distilled water to a PH of 3.

Quote:

Being impatient, I decided to boil the water off. There was a green slimy liquid remaining and I boiled that off as well.




impatience isnt a virtue. just the fact you ended up with a green slimy substance should have been a clue that you fucked it up. of course the boiling shouldnt have been a problem anyways since mesc is sturdy, just like the cacti.

Look, its a basic A/b extraction, but instead of evapping the final naphtha, you take the naphtha, add water PH3 to the naphtha 3x over, and collect the water and dry to obtain the mesc HCL.

i reccommend you learn a little more about a/b extractions before trying this again.


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Offlineesin
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #4342587 - 06/27/05 12:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

500mg of an extract should be way more than enough.

Boiling water never goes beyond 100?C at standart room pressure. That temp is perfectly safe as far as mescaline is concerned.

But i read somewhere mescaline was like a sugar and if you get it to the point at which sugar caramelizes - which happens at temps quite above 100?C - it will be rendered inactive.


What i'm guessing here, based on your info, is that the green slimy layer was that process starting to happen - almost no water left, b.p. of that mixture starts going up and the solutes start caramelizing and thus getting slimy (just like sugar). The chocolate like layer is probably your charred alkaloids.

My final evaps were never slimy at all. The water is perfectly liquid at all times, once the solution is getting saturated fine needles start forming on the edges of the solution. They will grow inwards as the water gradually evaporates from the edges to the center.

It never looked anything like chocolate. Always needle crystals, horizontally stuck to the vessel. Upon scraping, a tan tone will become apparent on the crystal, but never anything chocolate colored.

The odds are your 'chocolate' is most likely carbonized mescaline.

There's a lesser chance of me being completely wrong and you simply being a mescaline hardhead, coupled with an impure final product. But in that case, either the extract is awfully unpure (= or < than 20%) or the proper term for you would be titanium head :tongue2:.

100-150mg is enough to give a normal sized, intolerant person apparent effects (sub-psychedelic, but effects nonetheless). 500mg is the maximum recommended dose by Shulgin and Erowid, although many people eat way more than that.
Even assuming as low as 50% alkaloid purity (which AFAIK would be quite low for this type of extraction), your dose would have contained 250mg of the pure hydrocloride salt which should be enough to very noticeably mess up a normal person's mind for many hours.

Hopefully you are a hardhead (hey, it's better than ruining 10g+ of mescaline to impatience :wink:). But there's something about 'green slimyness' turning to a 'chocolate-like solid' which just isn't right :shrug:


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Offlineesin
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: lonebuddha]
    #4342638 - 06/27/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lonebuddha said:
Quote:

shrooma said:

It also wasn't anywhere near 100% mescaline. You extracted all the alkaloids. How much of that is mesc? Well, it differs greatly from cactus to cactus. I've read of one study that found 0% mescaline in some peruvian torch cacti. I'll try to find the link. Another study found a very high amount of the alkaloids to be tyramine.





What he said. Also I never heard about using a base to extract the mescaline. I'm no chemist so don't quote me on this but the mescaline would be freebase and possibly not very soluble in a basic water solution. Also you did not check the ph of the water with the acid solution. Its possible that the 3 ml of acid did not react with all of the mescaline. This would be the case if the ph adjusted to 7 after letting the acid naphtha solution sit.

Well that's my input of what else could have gone wrong. I would say up the dose and see what happens. If you still have the cactus muck, maybe consider another extraction using a different method. Best of luck.




The other alkaloids are synergetic or psychoactive on their own. They are not dead weight.

About it being extracted from the plant matter into the basic solution, well, it is. It's common in these extractions to just throw the plant matter into lye water.

Quote:

first mistake, you missed the defatting stage. you have to defat if your working with a substance that contains chlorophyll.




No need for that in cactus extractions. Chlorophyl is not soluble in water. Most of it will remain in the plant matter. The small amount of it that will find its way into the NPS, will be stuck in there when salting out the mescaline with acid water.

Quote:

way the fuck too much. 1 drop of muriatic acid will change a gallon of distilled water to a PH of 3.





True that. However it would not destroy the mescaline.
Or compromise purity for that matter as the excess HCl would just evaporate off in the end.

Quote:

Look, its a basic A/b extraction, but instead of evapping the final naphtha, you take the naphtha, add water PH3 to the naphtha 3x over, and collect the water and dry to obtain the mesc HCL.




That's what he did as far as i understood from his post.


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OfflineGNIOM1498
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: esin]
    #4342783 - 06/27/05 01:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

maybe the cacti was just weak in alkaloid content. I think where you screwed up is where you were impatient you should have waited for it to evaporate.


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Offlinenmukh1
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: GNIOM1498]
    #4342909 - 06/27/05 02:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I appreciate the insightful comments from those much more experienced than me  :thumbup: I know how to do an acid/base extraction (the joys of organic chemistry, or a misspent youth?), so I understand the theory.  I think the culprit is probably 1) Weak alkaloid content 2) Boiling off too much water and getting a brown paste which is probably carbonized mescaline hydrochloride.  The fumes of the boiling water definitely had a strong smell, most likely the excess HCl boiling off which indicates I used too much acid.  I think what I can do for further (quality control) is a recrystallization. 
I'd like some further hints, but I think the general procedure should be 1. Taking brown gunk and boiling it with activated charcoal in water or ethanol (alcohols evaporate faster)
2. Filtering the activated charcoal and setting the solution in the freezer for recrystallization

Any further tips, hints, suggestions, or bitch slaps appreciated  :grin:


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Offlineesin
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: nmukh1]
    #4343158 - 06/27/05 03:14 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hehe.

What i'd personally do first of all is give the muck a nice thorough acetone wash (grind that shit, suspend it in acetone, throw it through a cotton filter, keep pouring acetone through until it doesn't come out colored anymore. Discard the acetone. Than throw some hot water through the filter until there is no more powder in it. Evaporate that water PROPERLY)

Anhydrous acetone is better as it will virtually cause 0 loss. If regular acetone is all you can get and you don't feel like drying it, it should work well with a not too significant loss anyway.

Than if it doesn't come out clean enough (i.e, white or off-white and crystalline) i'd try recrystalizing it from ethanol, perhaps treating it with some activated charcoal beforehand.

Is the paste bitter at all?
It should taste like all the nastiness of pedro flesh but concentrated 100X  :shocked:
How much of that stuff did the kilo yield?


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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: esin]
    #4343246 - 06/27/05 03:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You may just be hard headed like me my threshold for PURE mesc sulfate is 500+ with trips usually being a 500 start and 1000 more after the nausea phase.
As for your brown goo I would go back and reextract it from scratch being patient and following the steps carefully and you should see a cleaner product.
Good luck,
WR


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OfflineSchwip
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: nmukh1]
    #4343672 - 06/27/05 05:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Likewise to what all the above posters advised..........

Also are you 110% sure you were working with Trichocerues and not a look-alike? (cover all grounds :smile: )


Good luck on your future ventures,


-S


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Offlinenmukh1
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: Schwip]
    #4346361 - 06/28/05 11:56 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Man, you guys are helpful!
I obtained about 4.3 g from a kilo of san pedro.  It tasted like the bitterest shit ever which was a red herring that it definitely contained alkaloids.  I don't think I'm heardheaded at all!  Just 2 grams of fungus gives me a good deal of existential angst.  I'm unfamiliar with the acetone wash/recrystallization tek.  If anyone could spell it out in greater detail or recommend a previous post, I'd appreciate it.  If I'm correct, recrystallization works on the solubility of the solute in a heated solvent.  So I heated the mescaline gunk in activated charcoal+H20 and filtered out the H20 with the mescaline (hopefully) dissolved in it.  I froze the brown water and took it out to wait for the water to evaporate and leave behind the crystals.  Smooth sailings or more tribulations?  I'm also quite sure it's a Trichocereus.  Columnar, bitter as shit, and small spines along the major axis. Maybe just weak alkaloid contents, perhaps peruvian torch might yield better? 
:thanx:


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Offlineesin
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Re: 500 mg of Mescaline Hydrochloride=NOTHING!?! [Re: nmukh1]
    #4346758 - 06/28/05 02:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As for the acetone wash, it's just washing that stuff with acetone. The mescaline will not dissolve but hopefully the gunky fatty contaminants will.

You can put it in a container, throw acetone on it mix well, let sit and than decant the acetone on top. Or you can do the funnel trick i mentioned before.

-Throw acetone on the muck, mix it as well as possible into it.
-Throw that mix through a cotton filter (funnel with stuffed cotton balls on the narrow part)
-Keep throwing acetone through the undissolved powder in the filter until your acetone doesn't come out colored anymore from the other end.
-Than let the filter with the alkaloid powder in it dry.
-Throw hot water through it (the water will dissolve your mescaline) and collect the solution in a vessel.
-Evaporate the water.

Keep in mind that acetone will gladly dissolve most plastics, so use a glass funnel!

Recrystallization should only be performed when you already have some sort of crystalline matter. That's why it is called Recrystallization. So if the result from the acetone wash is still gunky or amorphous, do not attempt to recrystallize it. Re-A/b it instead.

H2O doesn't work well for recrystallization as far as i understood. For mescaline you'll need to use an alcohol (ethanol, methanol, isopropanol, etc..).
For a thorough explanation on the process check out this link: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Garden&Number=2533363

Or you can listen to what whiterasta has to say as he knows a lot more than me.
BUT i'd personally try cleaning it first, and only if the results were unsatisfactory would i repeat the a/b.


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Amazon Shop: Peruvian Torch, pH Test Strips, San Pedro

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Ethnobotanical Garden

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