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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Truth [Re: dblaney]
    #4301456 - 06/15/05 09:30 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Wait so then how can you speculate that such a penultimate truth exists when you just said that it's impossible for us to comprehend it.

I never said it wasn't possible to comprehend it...just not know it :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Truth [Re: DieCommie]
    #4301489 - 06/15/05 09:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You can avoid it very well if you debase the meaning of absolute into nonexistence. There is no basis for something being absolute, and thus it cannot be absolute. The beauty of this is that it is not necessarily not absolute either. It lies in a limbo state of uncertainty, which is where it belongs.

Quote:

True, but irrelevant.



How so? I'll agree it's irrelevant insofar as truth is irrelevant, but those searching for truth would find it very relevant to realize it doesn't exist anywhere, so they won't find it.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Truth [Re: vampirism]
    #4301514 - 06/15/05 09:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Quote:

True, but irrelevant.



How so? I'll agree it's irrelevant insofar as truth is irrelevant, but those searching for truth would find it very relevant to realize it doesn't exist anywhere, so they won't find it.


The fact that I cant ever know the truth, is irrelevent to its existence. If you believe that "it doesnt exist anywhere" that is an absolute statement, thus contradicting yourself.

Saying everything lies in a state of uncertantiy also reeks of an absolute.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Truth [Re: DieCommie]
    #4301529 - 06/15/05 09:48 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:



Saying everything lies in a state of uncertantiy also reeks of an absolute.




How so? Certainty is built from uncertainty.

as for
Quote:

If you believe that "it doesnt exist anywhere" that is an absolute statement, thus contradicting yourself.




Well, yes, in a weird and irrelevant way. But are you suggesting truth is physical? There are absolutes in terms of language because of rules, and intangible things are not tangible.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Truth [Re: trendal]
    #4301551 - 06/15/05 09:55 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

From T. Schoorel:



The truth
A truth is not the truth. Anything can be a truth: you may have just had breakfast. Then the fact that you've had your breakfast is a truth. There are realities that we can call truths, e.g. for a woman alone certain parts of the city may not be very safe after midnight. Principles are more profound truths, the sun always rises in the east, whoever is watching the sunrise and whenever they are watching it. Two centuries ago the sun rose in the east too, and two centuries from now that will not have changed. But even though the sun always rises in more or less that same place, and we can therefor call that a truth, it is not the Truth.

Truth and reality
Asking "What is truth?", we are really asking "What is absolute truth?", "What is the truth of life and of existence?". What is the source of life, what is the truth of it, where does it come from? Our life itself is a reality but not absolute truth. We live about 100 years, and then it's over. Even our planet has a lifetime, it was born, and one day it will die. So how real, and how true is this reality?

Looking at life through the eyes of a human being, looking at it from within the human-paradigm, it looks very real. This is understandable because we are part and parcel of this relative existence. A relative being looking at a relative universe makes that universe look absolutely real, because that universe is at least as real as the being itself. I cannot say that this existence is not real, because I cannot deny my own existence.

From within the human-paradigm this existence looks as if it is absolute truth. But existence is not absolutely real, it is not absolute truth. One day it will undoubtedly collapse and die. We know that the universe was born one day, it didn't always exist. Whatever is born will die, it is not going to be here forever. The universe itself cannot be an exception. Existence, like everything that has evolved within it, is relatively real, relatively true.

Then is there an absolute truth? There is, but not within existence. How can there be a dream without a dreamer sleeping in his bed? How can there be a relative existence without absolute truth? But the dreamer himself cannot be found within the dream. The dreamer exists beyond the dream, the dreamer is the foundation of the dream. Truth cannot be found within existence, existence is found within truth. Reality is based in truth. This relative existence exists within absolute truth.

The Absolute
Truth cannot be destroyed, it cannot even be changed. It is the Absolute, that which never changes. It is true and unaffected even if the universe should collapse onto itself.

In order to talk and think about truth we have to use words, the concept of truth. But truth is the farthest thing from a concept or abstraction. Truth is not a philosophy, how can it be just a philosophy? Truth means that it is truth whether we have philosophies or not, whether we believe one thing, or something else. Truth is beyond beliefs and philosophies and our points of view. Truth was truth before human beings learned to stand on two legs. Truth is not an idea within the human mind, but the foundation of this existence.

The truth of your existence is really the truth of all existence, because such is the nature of truth: it cannot be monopolized by anyone. Truth is just the simple truth of the whole existence, otherwise what truth are we really talking about? Truth is the truth of you, of me, and of existence. Like water is the truth of the entire ocean, of one wave and of the next. When you come to the truth of you, you come to the truth of the whole existence.

A longing for truth
A deep, sincere longing for truth is not really a desire. It is not a desire because there is no personal motivation behind it. A desire is personally motivated, you hope to get better by its fulfillment. Or you are afraid of what could happen if your desire is not met. To be sincere means that you want to know the truth whatever it turns out to be. To long for truth is not personally motivated, you cannot predict whether the truth will make you happy, whether you will like it or not. You don't know what consequences it will have. Sincerity is when truth has become all-important. When truth is all-important, it is important for truth's sake, it is not a means to an end.

Truth liberates
Truth liberates. Even in small ways, like when we tell a small truth, it liberates us. When some small secret comes out, regardless of the consequences, it is always a relief! And truth is waiting to be found out! Truth always wants to come to light. Truth does not need to be created, but it wants to come to the light of our awareness. Waking up is possible, realizing truth is possible, and it sets you free. A small truth liberates a little, and a big truth liberates a lot. The more profound the truth you find, the more complete your freedom will be. The deeper the truth you come to know, the more complete your liberation. To find absolute truth is to find absolute freedom.

The universe has its limits
Everything we know has parameters and perimeters. It can be defined in a certain way, we can say how big it is, what color it has, at what speed it moves, what it's shaped like. Everything is defined and confined. Even the universe has outer limits! The universe is enormous, yet we are able to calculate its approximate size. The universe is really a confined space. The universe, though it is vast, has its limits. In our eyes of course, it has incredible proportions, but it is nevertheless limited and confined.

Paradigm Shifting:
From Time to Timelessness

The Absolute is absolute emptiness, a space without confines. The Absolute is boundless space. It is not space like we know it, it is the emptiness that lies beyond the edges of the universe, it is the space in which the universe expands. It is the home of the universe. It is absolute space: 'absolute' because there are no outer limits. This is not an emptiness that relates to fullness, that would be a relative emptiness. This emptiness could not be filled with a billion universes. Absolute emptiness, theoretically, can effortlessly accommodate an infinite number of baby and parallel universes. This is space without periphery, without boundaries.

As consciousness is life's first principle, as life begins with consciousness, the question "What is truth?" becomes concrete by asking "What is consciousness?" If you want to be clear on your existence, you will have to consider the nature of consciousness. What is the origin of consciousness? How is it possible?

Consciousness is a quality of open space. Absolute space is so open that it becomes conscious, has to be conscious in its nature. It is so wide open that the very openness makes it conscious. It is so absolutely open, so impressionable, that it is conscious. Consciousness is not a substance; it is not made out of anything, since it is made out of absolute emptiness! Absolute emptiness, absolute space is the origin of consciousness. One could say that consciousness is an epi-phenomenon of the Absolute. Consciousness seems to exist, when in fact it is simply a quality, a property, a side-effect of absolute emptiness.

The question What happens when we die? is not a very clear question, because what exactly do we mean by we? It is a lot more specific to ask "What happens to consciousness when our body dies?", "What happens to consciousness when the body, our door to experience, closes?". Nothing happens to consciousness, it is just that experiences are no longer possible. And when new life is born, there are new experiences. With every new birth, the consciousness-property of the Absolute is revealed.

Consciousness as such is never born, absolute emptiness does not need to be born, does not need to be created: it simply exists as the truth behind existence. Absolute space is absolute time, eternity, time without beginning and without end. With every death, consciousness seems to disappear. It doesn't truly disappear, because absolute emptiness cannot possibly disappear. It never dies, its time is never up.

Absolute Consciousness
Like experiences are not possible without consciousness, is consciousness possible without experiences? What does the term 'consciousness' mean when all experiences drop away, when there is no notion, no thought, no feeling, no memory, no dream, no awareness of anything whatsoever? The truth of life, of you, of me and of existence is absolute space, boundlessness, absolute freedom. It is the origin and foundation of consciousness, it is why consciousness is possible. The light of that absolute consciousness never extinguishes. It is absolute, because it is not even dependent on experience, on life.


Identification
The question "Who am I?" is not merely theoretical. What it means depends on what we identify with. If we identify with our physical body, then sports, the way we look, our health, things relating to the body become very important in our life. If we have identified with our emotions, then how we feel emotionally, our relationships with people, love, and happiness become most important to us. Identifying with our thoughts, we become readers of books, chess players, scientists, and a good conversation becomes really important. If we identify with consciousness, then spirituality, beauty in whatever form, and a sense of wonder become most important. Asking "Who am I?" immediately shows us our identifications. "I'm a sports person", "I am a very vulnerable and sensitive person", "I'm an Information Technology specialist", "I'm a very religious person", it all depends on where we identify most strongly.

We tend to identify with our roles, but these roles are not absolute. You may be a baseball player, but if you become too old to play the game, you are not really a baseball player anymore. Or you may be a postman, but if because of e-mail your job should become redundant, you are no longer the postman. Roles are relative, but we take them to be absolute. We identify with our roles to the point where we feel that we have become redundant when a role that we've played has become redundant.

Identification makes everything disproportionately personal. We are identified with our bodies, our feelings, our thoughts, and our consciousness to the point where we feel this is I, this is what and who I am. And because of our identification, we can become very emotional if what we've identified with turns out to be of a relative nature. We find it difficult to change, and we are afraid to die because we are deeply identified.

Who am I?
Asking "Who am I truly?" or "What is truth?" means that you cannot take the question at face value anymore. You may have identified with this or that, but now you want to get to the very truth of you. You are not just going to accept the first or second answer that comes to mind. "What is truth?" is not just a philosophical and theoretical question: to reflect on it can be a beginning, but finally, it might change your whole paradigm of yourself. And like understanding the earth to be round instead of flat has had a major impact on our lives, the way we understand ourselves will change everything. "Who am I?" or "What is truth?" are very penetrative questions, they can make you understand yourself in a completely new way.

Claiming ownership
Identification is the movement of claiming something, trying to appropriate it. It means that at a deep level we think, "This is me, and mine to keep." But life is a gift that is not for keeps, and ownership is only possible in a relative sense. Something is mine when it isn't yours, the meaning of 'mine' is relative. But I cannot say that it is mine in an absolute sense. I do not own this existence, and when I die, whatever I considered to be mine, turns out not to be mine after all. Identification is fine as long as we understand that its meaning is relative. It really has no absolute meaning. Like a wave cannot claim ownership over itself because it belongs to the ocean, ultimately we do not own ourselves because we belong to the universe.

When it is time to die, we are forced to give up everything we ever owned, we are even forced to give up what we have thought of as ourselves. We will need to let go of our entire lives. In this moment of truth, it will become very clear what we are not ready to let go of. We will have to give up our physical life, our emotional life, our mental life, our dream life, our social life. And we will need to let go of even our consciousness. The essence of existing, of being alive, our basic awareness, will be taken away. Dying can either be a phenomenon of complete acceptance, or it can be a struggle. The degree to which we find it difficult to let go of our lives voluntarily, to that degree we are identified.

Liberation
What is liberation? Liberation is waking up to absolute truth. Liberation happens when absolute truth comes to light, when truth is revealed. It is discovering the truth of you, which is the truth of everyone and of existence. Truth is not your physical body, nor is it an emotion, thought, belief, or social role. It is not even your consciousness. As long as we are identified with any of these things, it is impossible for truth to reveal itself. We cannot freeze water and at the same time make it boil: these movements are in opposite directions. Truth, the Absolute, is revealed the moment we stop the movement of identifying ourselves with that which is relative.

You can only know absolute truth by taking a first-hand plunge. Truth cannot be known by merely investigating it intellectually. Absolute openness cannot be grasped by the mind, the mind cannot imagine boundless space. Enlightenment, freedom, is not a mental conclusion, it is not a play with words, it is the freedom of your heart. Truth is revealed when you no longer identify with your relative existence. 'No longer identify' does not mean that you distance yourself from life, it simply means that you do not continue the movement of appropriating life and consciousness. Like you can walk on a piece of land without putting a fence around it and claiming it is yours. When you are no longer identified, you discover absolute consciousness, absolute truth, you.

How do you stop being identified? How does one give up his or her identifications? Identification stops through understanding. Understanding makes identification impossible. We don't need to dis-identify ourselves from anything. If you understand that something isn't yours, how then can you disown it? If you understand that something isn't yours, then why claim it? Your life and your consciousness are not yours, not really. Can we face this simple truth? Then why identify with it? What do you mean if you say "This is I"? The true you reveals itself only when all identification stops. You can't have it both ways, you either identify with the life you have come to know, or you discover the true you.

The final moment of identification is when you stop identifying yourself with even consciousness. You completely let go of it. If it persists by itself, fine. If it disappears, you will not try to hold on to it, to prolong it. You give up your identification, you give up your claim completely. Does that mean that your body will disintegrate? Does it mean that your consciousness instantly vanishes? To understand that something isn't yours does not make it disappear just like that.

Truly and deeply understanding that literally nothing is yours, the movement of claiming your life is discontinued. You give up everything, no holding back whatsoever, before death makes it clear that it was never yours to begin with. By giving up all there is to give up, you suddenly become aware of who you are, you discover absolute freedom. Giving up all identifications, you find truth.

Like a flower releasing its fragrance to the winds
Resignation is not liberation. Resignation means that somewhere along the way you have become disheartened. You have given up your search for true peace or freedom. For a moment it may look the same, because you've stopped searching. But this is not freedom. Find truth, and your search ends. Not because you've given up searching, but because you have found what your heart was longing for! Your search has come to an end in a natural way. To find truth is like a flower releasing its fragrance to the winds, somehow fulfilling its ultimate destiny. It is to find the boundlessness that millions are looking for.

Enlightenment is a deep understanding
Enlightenment is not an attainment to be proud of. You just know that you are very lucky to have found freedom, you know that you could have missed it. Truth is never an achievement, it has always been there, it is just that now your eyes are open to it. Enlightenment is a deep understanding, it is not an ego thing at all. Understanding is possible thanks to our intelligent nature, it is not my or your accomplishment. What have you attained? It's more like you've given away that which was never yours!

To be enlightened means that you know truth. It means that you know your true identity, which is not an identity as such, because truth is universal, not personal. The joke of enlightenment is that you are not an enlightened person. There is enlightenment when, as a person, you are gone... There is realization, but not a realized person. Why? Because the whole idea of 'I, a separate person' has disappeared. Of course, you live your life as an individual, as an undivided being, but now you understand your absolute nature. You know that you are absolute consciousness, not a separate being, not separate consciousness.

Enlightenment means that truth has become so close and familiar that it is now your residency. And whatever happens in your life, you will not leave your wall-free home.

~The End~




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Truth [Re: vampirism]
    #4301553 - 06/15/05 09:56 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Certainty is built from uncertainty.


Agreed. Which means certainty isnt certain at all. Isnt this an absolute?

Im not sure what you mean about your second point.... No Im not suggesting truth is physical.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Truth [Re: DieCommie]
    #4301583 - 06/15/05 10:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Well, my point is this: how can you find something that doesn't exist ( aka isn't physical ) ? It would be pure subjectivity.


Quote:

Agreed. Which means certainty isnt certain at all. Isnt this an absolute?




Well, not quite. You need to take Point of View into account, which sort of nullifies the whole argument, but that happens a lot in these types of discussions. This would have to lend some credibility to existentialism, but that's unavoidable since we're humans, I think. When Point of View is applied to nonexistent concepts like "certainty" or "absolute," things get very muddled.


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Truth [Re: vampirism]
    #4301602 - 06/15/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
how can you find something that doesn't exist ( aka isn't physical ) ? It would be pure subjectivity.




Yeah that's what I was trying to get at earlier.

While a tree in the middle of a forest will still make a noise if no one is around to hear it, THE truth will NOT exist if no one is around to perceive or experience it.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Truth [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4301645 - 06/15/05 10:18 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm.

it had some very interesting concepts and points. Aside from a few troubling inconsistencies in its foundation ( which I'm willing to ignore for now ), it was a good read and something I will consider.


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